Personalism 102

First topic message reminder :

This is a topic reminder post……

Personalism 102 is just a continuation Personalism 101…….. as we approach the limit of 40 pages.  

The contention remains that the best possible world is necessarily based on the philosophy and ontology of Personalism.  

The ontology is immaterialism, taken at it’s most fundamental level.

Earthshaking happens.

Heart shaking, that’s what one should pay attention to.

Don't put your trust in material things.

Hobbit,

You draw a distinction between God and System.  

There is nothing to say that God would not or could not be systematic.  

We certainly are.

And how could there be cosmic consciousness without a Subject or Source of that consciousness…….. an I Am?  

Ok, I understand that panpsychists propound a free-floating consciousness.  

I’m doubtful that such a thing makes any sense.  

The Stanford SEP entry for panpsychism lists as the first objection……. The Incredulous Stare.

If you ever get beyond the Incredulous Stare, please let us know.



(cont………)

12k folks have died.

Having a ceiling crush you doesn’t sound fun.

RIP

Smelly El Chivo wrote:12k folks have died.

Having a ceiling crush you doesn’t sound fun.

RIP

The numbers will be far far higher, indeed R.I.P.

But the cause is GOD??

This is about creation and destruction by the system that is omni present.

GOD is an invention, a copout by those who fail to ponder what this system is.

Jesus is a clue in that it is related to the APPARENT movement of a great time period where resets occur relative to that apparent movement.

An Earthquake is a localised event relative to the consciousness field of this planet been locally overloaded in it's implosion rate to cause time ripples where materials ( 3D ) displace at fractionally alternate times.
This appears as shaking to those who are there within their own tiny consciousness field.

I sat up some years ago somehow KNOWING an earthquake was going to occur and had My dowsing rods in hands as it did occur, I was so excited and KNEW what I was able to detect as My rods were almost ripped out of My hands as the flows rippled  along.

I KNOW, I have KNOWledge that is available to those who have their senses operating, our potentials are and have been impaired for control reasons.

Please Yourselves if You wish to stay swimming in the Nile ( denial)
Watch out for the reptiles though ( crocodiles)


https://daily.jstor.org/crocodiles-in-ancient-egypt/
hobbit

God can do as it likes with its relative appearances and reflections.

Creation is absolute imagination.

It is not something from nothing.

Destruction and rebirth in every instantaneous moment.

Continuity is only apparent.

Each manifestation brings out one form, as another is occluded.

This world here now always engenders the other world.

What you hint at hobbit originated in essence and then occurred in gross matter.

Using imagination, we can see the whole event.

Those killed were collected or freed.

All of creation aches to be reborn, to return.

…

Personally, I do not in any way believe in a historical return of Jesus.

The kingdom is within.

Clinging to literal interpretations of books about spirt or god is a failure in every way.

The Logos is within us.

Revelation itself is a silly book, a Jewish political rant.

Emerson pointed to your intuition for god within you, I tend to agree.

I just wrote this just as U2 posted.

This is meaningful for those with their real eyes open.

…

UFOs are imaginal objects, very personal, as if seeing a vision I think.

U2 criticizes me for not doing serious study on the subject, but I am my silly friend.

I explore the imaginal realm and see the source of all things.

You would do well to journey there yourself and remember what you are and what is happening.

Haha, it’s a small small small world.

Hobbit and Chivo,

I am not going to allow any absolutism on this thread……. that includes blanket denials.  

Suck it up, or have your own thread 🧵.  

Anyone of us can be God or the Second Coming.  

Virtually all of us will come to agree that one of us is.  

This eventuality will be seen as a necessary part of the Metanarrative.  

Get over it…… get used to it.  

Hobbit and Chivo are our conscientious objectors.  

They will be treated as such.  

Whether he knows it or not, Hobbit is on the cutting edge of a newly revived philosophical fad……. Panpsychism.  

Panpsychism is the last refuge of those espousing a scientific/big-world cosmology.  

They are absolutists in that regard.  

However, there already exist robust arguments that defeat panpsychism, which the neo-panpsychists studiously ignore.

Before I come down too hard on the panpsychists, I have to admit my pantheism problem.  

I’m saying that God is a natural byproduct of our collective (un)consciousness.  

I’m saying more than that…….

We are the natural product of the I Am.  

The closest that we come to a absolute/stand-alone existence is the I Am.  

However, the I Am can only ever be a flash in the pan, before it conjures its imaginary playmates.  

We might as easily say that the I Am is the primordial self-imagining collective (PSIC).

The notion of the Trinity is the closest that we have come to such a conclusion, historically.  

Most Christians are Trinitarians…… in that they take this notion in a literalist, absolutist sense.  

The jguy did his best to deflate this form of absolutism, but he couldn’t do it single-handedly……. that’s why he left us with the notion of the Second Coming and the Paraclete.  

The opera is not over……..

It is a basic premise of the BPWH is that the PSIC is the ontological primitive.

But, truly, the only ontological primitive (Ontos) is Creator/Creation.

The PSIC is just a logical extrapolation from the Ontos…… a stepping stone.



(cont……..)

Haha, you obviously see nothing but your own view.

Your judgments are your own.

If I ever meet you in person Dan, and I doubt I will, first thing I am going to do is thumb wrestle you.

It’s as good as any way to settle disputes.

It’s personal between you and I.

I can only really dialogue with those I have a personal connection with.

I stood by you in a dark hour.

I am not your enemy, I am your friend, don’t forget that.

The inklings had many disagreements, but they also deeply influenced each other.

No one view is complete.

There is value in engaging with different or more nuanced views than your own.

I am in no way an absolutist, fundamentalists are the literalists, that’s foolishness.

They have not the intellect to see or are very far from it.

They lack a connection to imagination.

Poor muppets.

They are missing everything.

My contention is no return is needed, the kingdom is within and return is always available, all the time.

I share my view from here and you can’t see into my experience anymore than I can yours.

Everything I speak about is from experience, not speculation or opinion.

Dialogue is required.

It’s a big tent.

My mind and heart are open, unlike most unfortunately.

And I have my own threads where I document my exploration of the imaginal realm, the source of all things.

That others are lost in their own minds is beyond my concern or ability to rectify.

I have to lower myself to dialogue with one such as yourself you should be honored and humble.

Haha.

When you get too close to Dan’s cherished idols he reacts like Donald Duck grasping to his treasure.

Dan has always been jealous of me, who is God.

He wants it all for himself.

They caste ones like that out of heaven.

I don’t think Dan accepts he is the I AMs imaginary play thing.

In fact, this has driven him crazy.

Silly

Dan, ( ace post removerismer)
I am not a panpiper or whatever You declare myself to be, I am a hobbit.

Hobbitism is the comprehension of universe as a perfectly packed crystal, where consciousness chases itself in an eternal quest to go to rest, the packing of the crystals faces been the various dimensions where consciousness enables local vortex fields that contain the information of all that exists within that field.

You Dan exist within Your unique 3D field, and all Your information is in that field, that You been a 3D vehicle where Your 5D eternal self is the driver of said 3d vehicle.

That 5D within Your heart region is a mere satellite of the eternal You, which craves the 3D density to experience that density,

hobbit

Poor hobbit,

So cluelessly arbitrary…….. 3D, 5D, crystals, etc.  

God must love small minded folks, otherwise he wouldn’t have created so many of you.  

Simple fact……. hobbit hates people, seeing the rest of us us as being terminally arrogant.  

He wishes to consign humans to the rubbish bin of history……. humans having no redeeming qualities.  

This view of humans has been the source of all evil.  

If I were you, I would be ashamed, but hobbit knows no shame.  

I’m asking you to take a time out from this thread 🧵 to re-examine your numerical fundamentalism.  

I’m guessing that you are a high functioning autist……. having no clue about your underlying condition.  

Yes, autism does have its place in history as a significant driver of the Katechon.  

Our best understanding of scientific materialism is that it is another form or autism……. the notion of strong AI is one variation of this.  

Autists are blind to anything other than reductionism.

They are blind to holism, to the transcendental, to the transpersonal.

Is there any cure for autism?

Well, their misanthropy will take them out of the loop as soon as their social disease has been more widely recognized.

Let’s just hope that they don’t take the rest of us with them.



(cont……..)

Wow,

Your back on Your trick cycle couch, declaring Myself as whatever.

If You ban everyone from Your throne area it will be very lonely?

"Small minded" "hates people" "high functioning autist"

You know Me so poorly.

I am asking for You to be thrown out from the trick cyclist club.
Your tyres need deflating.

Hobbit

Well, hobbit, I wish there were another side……. you have never bothered to show it.  

At least I have a Tricycle…… you only have a unicycle……. pot calling the kettle……!?
……….


It was supposed to have been a self-deprecating joke……. but never mind.  


Back to panpsychism……..

Yes, panpsychism is a trap for the unwary.  

Is David Chalmers unwary?  He seems like a perfectly clever fellow.

Desperation motivates us to rush into dead ends…… to jump from the frying pan into the fire.

Where else is there to jump…….. into the BPWH?!  

We’re not quite that desperate, yet.  

But we have them on the run…….. the herd is stampeding……. all we have to do is head them off at the pass.  

Les jeux sont fait.  

chick could easily be called a pantheist.

What does pantheism have that panpsychism doesn’t?

It has us…….. there is that of God in everyone of us, and there is precious little left over.



(cont……..)

Black, it's the colour pots and pans go when subjected to smoke from a fire.
Tricycle is the posh word for a bike, I ain't posh ( port out starboard home)

hobbit

Round and round we go…

Gotta admit, if you aren’t getting crushed in a mindquake, life is kinda fun and wild.

The liminal is where it’s at, why Dan continues to be dragged down and distracted by the rantings of materialist muppets is beyond me, scientists and fundamentalists, fake news.

They will never hear him.

We aren’t going to change each other’s mind really.

But for the open minded and hearted, we have a bounty here.

“What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.”

—Ralph Waldo Emerson

Panpsychism is the last refuge of the materialist/big-worlders.  

That refuge is in the process of being eliminated.  

Chivo thinks he is above the fray.  

He is about to be sucked into the mud.  

Yes, the small world also had a combination problem, until the jguy came along and solved it.  

The jguy came along and said…… I am the I Am……. get over it….. get used to it.  And, if you don’t believe me, I’m sending you the SoT to seal the deal.  

Yes, sports fans, that’s how we solved the combination problem.  

Traditional Christians have been sitting on the solution for two thousand years.  

They are about to get their fluffy rear ends kicked out of that catbird seat.  

Everyone will be going down on this one.  

It will be a brand new day.  

Is anyone’s rear end fluffier than Chivo’s?  

I don’t think so.  

Yes, there is no other solution to the Combination Problem than the one we’ve been sitting on for two-thousand years.  

In the end, there is only one Person……. all the rest is smoke and mirrors.  

We are each other’s imaginary playmates……. soulmates.  

The jguy could see it all, looking down from his lonely wooden tower.  
……….

Subpoenas have been issued. Federal and State police are cooperating.

Epicenter in Turkey was where you were standing. Associated change in Earth's magnetic field was where you were standing. First you were in Turkey, next you were in Patagonia, next the Earthquake occurred where you had been in Turkey. Your former friend in New York has been studying.
………..

David C………. The Combination Problem for Panpsychism…….

Panpsychism, the view that fundamental physical entities have conscious experiences, is an excit- ing and promising view for addressing the mind–body problem. I have argued in “Panpsychism and Panprotopsychism” that it promises to share the advantages of both materialism and dualism and the disadvantages of neither. In particular, it can respect both the epistemological intuitions that motivate dualism and the causal intuitions that motivate physicalism.

Nevertheless, panpsychism is subject to a major challenge: the combination problem. This is roughly the question: how do the experiences of fundamental physical entities such as quarks and photons combine to yield the familiar sort of human conscious experience that we know and love.
……….

James is here arguing that experiences (feelings) do not aggregate into further experiences, and that minds do not aggregate into further minds. If this is right, any version of panpsychism that holds that microexperiences (experiences of microphysical entities) combine to yield macroexpe- riences (experiences of macroscopic entities such as humans) is in trouble.
……….

A reasonable goal here is to either solve the combination problem or prove that it cannot be solved. I cannot say that I have achieved either of these objectives in this article as it stands, but I hope to at least clarify the issues enough to help others to make progress.

Hmmm………

No phenomena are real, unless they are observed…… by a sapient observer.  

A lone, mortal observer is not enough……. unless it is the Cosmic Observer…….

It just so happens that everyone of us is a reflection of that One.  

We are but proxies.  
………


I’m hearing that the last of the shoot downs was not a balloon, and remains unidentified.  It looked like a cylinder.  

How long will that take to get broadcast?  

Now, with a fourth shoot down, the coverage is expanding…… even China is getting into the act.

But, no, it’s not an invasion, we are told. Our radars are just being reprogrammed. Wonderful.



(cont………)

Just sharing the imaginal view.

Most won’t let go of their idols.

They can have them.

They will die clinging to them.

We don’t wait for a world to come.

We fully occupy and participate where we are.

You can keep your isms.

You can find this no matter your religion or none.

Just have to open your real eyes.

No need to argue about the particulars.

This is beyond belief and beyond description.

You have been the only stick in the mud I’ve known recently

Keep at it.

We humans are mere consequences, as are all living ( own unique field of consciousness) entities.

The planet is such, it's so called magnetic field is consciousness that displaces relative to the resistances and free flows of all larger fields it is within.


Earthquakes are time related as time is only relative to the field concerned, and the mass within such fields resets in time as overloads occur along specific geometries.

hobbit

So we have panpsychism and pantheism……..

The one is eccentric, the other is concentric.

We play hide and seek….. lost and found…… big world and small world.  

Many of us prefer the anonymity, but that is not our natural state.  

Our natural sapience derives from the concentric.  

Yes, consciousness is self-centered, but it is also, necessarily logo-centric.  

Consciousness is necessarily interpersonal.  

The I Am is more accurately the We Are.  
………


Is there not a combination problem for the We Are?  

If there is, I believe that it is covered with the Transpersonal dimension.  

Couldn’t that also be the case with electrons?  

A physicist would say that elementary particles come equipped with an extra dimension, as manifested in the laws of physics.  

I would suggest that the laws of physics are more likely a manifestation of our collective memory or unconscious.  

The physical properties are exhibited mainly en mass, which we extrapolate to individual entities.  

Gravity is a force of habit……. but whose habit?  

The tree on the Quad…. is it still there, unobserved?

But suppose it just disappeared…… think of the consternation.

The non-human world takes the path of least resistance around our collective consternations.  

And, yes, the same with the human…….?  

Well, within the boundaries of the Metanarrative.  

And who wrote the book of love?  

Who put the jguy on that lonely wooden tower?  

Who is the drama queen?  

Well, there certainly is the maestro phenomenon.  

Somebody rises to the occasion……. on occasion.  

We have that potential within us.  

Does that require a deus ex machina?  

No.  It only requires our deus in machina……. our better Angel.

Can our better angels also cover the physics?  

Don’t they get stretched awfully thin?
……….


Perhaps the exceptions prove the rule……. the paranormal rides herd on the normal.



(cont……..)

Generally, Christians are lost, they have to find themselves.

The Stoic God and God of Ibn Arabi and Heraclitus seems the best we have come up with.

It is in the union of the opposites in the moment we make and can see meaningful connections.

One has to go all in on life and accept death.

Stoicism was a pantheistic philosophy. The cosmos is active, life-giving, rational and creative. It is a single cohesive unit, a self-supporting entity containing within it all that it needs, and all parts depending on mutual exchange with each other. I don’t think the Stoics allowed for the irrational enough, but they were not living for some life to come, this is where we are and where the blood spills in the dirt. Virtue is its own heaven and lack of it, hell. The ancient Stoic philosophers thought it irrational to fear what we cannot control. I can concur with them in this.

Ibn says, “The cosmos is two worlds and the presence is two presences, though a third presence is born between the two from their having come together. The first presence is the presence of the absent, and it possesses a world called the “world of the absent”. The second presence is the presence of sense perception and the witnessed; its world is called “the world of the witnessed” and is perceived by eyesight [basar], while the world of the absent is perceived by insight [basîra]. That which is born from the coming together of the two is a presence and a world. The presence is the presence of imagination, and the world is the world of imagination.”

The universe is an image of wujûd in a nonexistent domain. It follows that, even though we divide what we perceive into sensory and imaginal, in fact everything is imaginal. Ibn al-‘Arabi writes:

“The whole cosmos takes the forms of raised-up images, for the Wujûdi Presence is only the Presence of Imagination. Then the forms that you see become divided into “sensory” and “imaginalized”, but all are imaginalized.”

Heraclitus keeps it simple.

“God is day night, winter summer, war peace, satiety hunger, and it alters just as when it is mixed with incense is named according to the aroma of each.”

He advocated keeping the soul dry and not moist.

In an immaterial world, how might we go about conserving matter?  

This is even more difficult to conceive, if we don’t posit atoms.  

Biological systems would be natural conservators.

Within biological systems, genetic material would of particular concern.  

What does an immaterialist make of genes 🧬……. of seeds?  

I tend to revert to the logos spermatikos.  

As as model for the LS, consider the Riemann Hypothesis……. it encapsulates much of mathematics.  

The conservation of numbers may be similar to the conservation of atoms.  

If 2 were to disappear, it would be missed…….. and logically it can’t.  

Is every atom similarly entangled?  

Perhaps.  

How then do mutations occur?

How are mutations entangled?  

How are diseases entangled?  

Or why are the entangled?  

If viruses 🦠 didn’t exist, would we have to invent them?  

It seems that way.  

We had to invent Nature…….. nature has a lot of niches to be filled…… normally and paranormally…… dark energy, dark matter, etc……..

We had to invent Nature……..?

Nature is how we cover our tracks.

Otherwise, we couldn’t play lost and found.  

Playing this game is our raison d’être, didn’t you know?  

Chivo enjoys it as much as anyone.  

All ye, all ye in free………!

All good things must end…….. but wait ‘til you see the encore.  



(cont………)

All mathematics is derived from just two paradoxes.

Things like this daringly and strongly suggest the existence of platonic objects.

Nature is arguably much like this platonic realm. The hairiness of pure mathematics suggests that we are the only thing constructing platonic objects, with this thereby describing the linkage of the concrete to the abstract.

With panpsychism there is the suggestion that things like energy flow in an ecosystem (and the larger concept of systems ecology) obviously do not come from the soul of man strictly but from something of the same principle.

I do not wholeheartedly embrace panpsychism as the idea that mind over matter is sadly a very slippery slope though it is absolute truth (insofar as essence preceding existence and Kant’s “Ding an sich” being held correspondingly as valid).

There are other fascinating abstract concepts like the Fundamental Theorem of Arithmetic that strongly relate to what is known as strong complexity in emergentism.

Now when you have something like virology or xenovirology or xenomycology, the creature-creator relationship becomes more obfuscated. With fungi, it is an extremely and amazingly simple mechanism of growth: hyphae! There is no real suggestion that a lot would be going on with nucleic acids with such a simple mechanism of growth.

So what you call LS would be a quasilogical conclusion from all this but I get the impression that life started here and always returns here (Earth and Heart ).

The alchemical principle suggests (much like Hubble) that things can come “ex nihlo” and you could get 2 from just 1, like you say.

There is something very interesting called order theory that might be key in developing working models for the thing we call reality. Science works with such tremendous satisfaction that it seems it would have no use for things like metaphysics or pataphysics but physics is merely natural philosophy and perhaps theoretical mathematical physics could use order theory to describe entropy or causation with more robustness.

My work in theoretical physics is currently exploring the interaction that occurs when mass is added to something in the broadest sense and how our minds cannot perceive this physical reality (hence quantum gravity and the fundamental questions of physics).

The way I see it, the era of nothingness is long gone.

Oh I love hide and seek.

But I am also acutely aware of my limits.

We don’t know at all what we think we know.

In fact, as sure as we are that we know, we do not.

I think Socrates covered this very well.

There is a broad spectrum of intellect.

It takes high intellect and intuition to understand the little we can, which isn’t much, but is enough I think.

Most with low insight and intellect, make do best they can, they don’t worry about what they are not aware of.

I do not say this to mean high intellect is better than the low.

Each has their own unique abilities.

When we stop seeking for more than we need, hopefully we settle down.

We can come to rest in the life we have and see no need to pursue extremes if we become wise.

I think much of our lives are lived in misunderstanding.

Who says anything is understandable or really needs to be?

We can learn the properties of objects to more efficiently get work from them.

This is something humans can do quite well.

So well, we can make bombs so efficient we can destroy the planet now.

How clever of us.

I shall not make any claims of ultimate understanding.

Things are what they are for a smelly

I focus on my work and my family and friends and do the best I can.

What does a flower focus on?

Or a rock?

Or God?

I, nor you, know really.

Are we each a limited form of god?

Is there nothing beyond our experience?

How could we know?

Because we think we are aware?

Yes, this is a very good game of hide and seek.

We seek, but I think we can never really find.

This drives some to suicide.

But why make a mess like that?

Just live it out and do the best you can I say.

Don’t worry about what you can’t know or control.

Don’t blow the earth up.

Life will be a lot more fun.

Maybe I have found something after all.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/understanding/

Cockatoo……..

I do not wholeheartedly embrace panpsychism as the idea that mind over matter is sadly a very slippery slope though it is absolute truth (insofar as essence preceding existence and Kant’s “Ding an sich” being held correspondingly as valid).

Panpsychism and idealism/immaterialism have some similarities, but otherwise panpsychism adheres closely to scientific cosmology.  

The small, personal, best possible world understands the scientific appearances are, aesthetics aside, just to keep our noses to the technological grindstone…… until the portals open.  

Slippery slope……….

Slip slidin' away
Slip slidin' away
You know the nearer your destination
The more you're slip slidin' away

Get over it……. get used to it.  

Enjoy the ride.  
…………


Our mathematical entanglement with the Reimann Hypothesis provides a model for our entanglement with the rest of (our) Creation.  

Aren’t the prime numbers perfectly deterministic?

Well, no more and no less than the BPW.  

Can numbers change their spots……. their decomposition?  

Only when we’re not looking.  

The RH, on the other hand, seems perfectly balanced on the knife edge of decidability.  

Who ordered that?  

Is it a matter of aesthetics?  

If I say so, who will disprove me?  

The RH is news from nowhere that is now here.

What keeps the RH afloat?  

Is it dark energy or dark matter?

Can such balancing acts be entirely unrelated….. unentangled?  

How deep does the entanglement go?  

Is there no observer effect…… no finger prints?  

What does the quantitative finitude of persons (~10^10) have to say on this matter?  

Where do the parallel lines intersect……. where are the antipodes?  

Where does the quantitative give way to the qualitative?  

Do we have dialectical immaterialism?  

That was Hegel’s goal…….. but he was decidedly impersonalistic.

The BPW necessarily inhabits the twilight zone between the personal and the impersonal.  

Because the BPW is also the only possible world.  

Here dwells the logos spermatkos.  

Here dwells Agape.  

Here dwells faith……. why there is something rather than nothing.  

Here is where the Alpha becomes the Omega.  

Our Omega is the least possible of all intrusions…… but intrude it will, at the best possible time.  

We will not be left twisting in the cosmic breezes.  

We will have our rendezvous with destiny.  

Be there or be square.  
……….


The RH is a piece of eternity dropped into temporality.

It can be one small beacon, if you wish it to be.



(cont………)

My own personal philosophy is pretty well summed up by…

“Enjoy every sandwich.”

You have the RH, I have my sandwiches.

No isms needed here really.

Make it simpler than that, dare you.