Immaterialism 4

First topic message reminder :

This is the continuation of the Immaterialism 3 thread.......

The original topic reminder post https://openmindsforum.forumotion.com/t320-immaterialism
should be substituted here......

............

Doug,

Getting to the Moon was no conspiracy.  

It’s the Moon itself that is exhibit A of our Anthropic conspiracy, which demonstrates that the Earth itself is at the bottom of a rabbit hole.  

Among many other functions, the Moon has served to lure us into space.  It may not be cheese, but it is space bait.  It has helped to keep our noses to the technological grindstone.

A significant part of the Anthropic problem is the Rare Earth Hypothesis.  Exhibit A of the REH is the Rare Moon Hypothesis.  

Sure, it may be that Creation started with a Big Bang.  

But it makes much more sense to say that it started with a big dream, and we are actors/avatars strutting on the stage of this dream. The Moon happens to be a beautiful and felicitous backdrop.  

However, the Earth would be better described as hollow or concave.  All of space can be contained in that hollow.  In actuality, the Earth resides inside a Hive, which is our doorway to Eternity.  

Can you convey that on a stage, Doug?  


10:10..........

Being a direct realist or direct perceptionist, does that entail my disavowal of all forms of representation?  

When I hear music, can I not distinguish the sounds of individual instruments, and notes?

By seeing a person’s face, I’m not thereby reading their mind.  

Do photons not impinge upon my retina?  

I cannot see in the dark...... without a source of photons.  

Perception is all about context and entanglement........ much like portals.

Are memories a direct perception of the past....... through the illusion of time? Then why can’t we see the future? Temporality is objective in that sense.

The interpersonal unity of time and presence is something to be remarked.




(cont.......)

If I ventured in the slipstream
Between the viaducts of your dream
Where immobile steel rims crack
And the ditch in the back roads stop
Could you find me?
Would you kiss-a my eyes?
To lay me down
In silence easy
To be born again
To be born again
From the far side of the ocean
If I put the wheels in motion
And I stand with my arms behind me
And I'm pushin' on the door
Could you find me?
Would you kiss-a my eyes?
To lay me down
In silence easy
To be born again
To be born again
There you go
Standin' with the look of avarice
Talkin' to Huddie Ledbetter
Showin' pictures on the wall
Whisperin' in the hall
And pointin' a finger at me
There you go, there you go
Standin' in the sun darlin'
With your arms behind you
And your eyes before
There you go
Takin' good care of your boy
Seein' that he's got clean clothes
Puttin' on his little red shoes
I see you know he's got clean clothes
A-puttin' on his little red shoes
A-pointin' a finger at me
And here I am
Standing in your sad arrest
Trying to do my very best
Lookin' straight at you
Comin' through, darlin'
Yeah, yeah, yeah
If I ventured in the slipstream
Between the viaducts of your dreams
Where immobile steel rims crack
And the ditch in the back roads stop
Could you find me
Would you kiss-a my eyes
Lay me down
In silence easy
To be born again
To be born again
To be born again
In another world
In another world
In another time
Got a home on high
Ain't nothing but a stranger in this world
I'm nothing but a stranger in this world
I got a home on high
In another land
So far away
So far away
Way up in the heaven
Way up in the heaven
Way up in the heaven
Way up in the heaven
In another time
In another place
In another time
In another place
Way up in the heaven
Way up in the heaven
We are goin' up to heaven
We are goin' to heaven
In another time
In another place
In another time
In another place
In another face

It’s the video from the tomb that’s the game-changer

That's right, my mistake, the resurrection not the crucifixion...

We live under the threat of the "nuclear Bomb as God" created by our will to power.

It is the will to attain though, that prevents the idolatry of God through technology.

Some intereresting reading from Tom’s Green Man.

Are we doomed, is Pan dead? Will the bomb be our God?

Heeeelllllllllll Noooooooooooooo

“We are doomed either to accept "accomplished nihilism" or the inhuman powers of Second Nature. But to interpret this as the unalterable destiny of the West, as somehow the new Truth of Being which we must accept in order to be in tune with our times-this invites the ultimate catastrophe, the ultimate Idolatry: worship of the Promethean human in the form of technology and the complete and final occultation of even the memory of both the human being and of God. For Corbin the proclamation that our current sorry state is our destiny and in fact the truth of Being, is the greatest domination, the most dangerous dogmatism. Corbin stands for the freedom of the individual against the tides of the times. It is a stand against a world made by men, or a world, if so it be, made by the Fallen God, the absolute literalist, a God who is no longer hidden at all, whose body is the bomb, whose meaningless images now flood our lives. Corbin stands for the individual soul, in that community of beings accessible to us in the numinous shine and radiance of the Primordial Revelation.”

My experience only makes a kind of sense in seeing things as Corbin does.

I think we must come to the brink of total abstraction.

This is a curse of limit, but with a seed of salvation within.

“Surely we have been shaped by the prophetic tradition out of which Christianity was born, but I share Corbin's belief that we are not trapped within the confines of history tory as it has developed.”

I concur with Tom and Corbin, we are not confined by history and I know this to my bone’s marrow.

But I am not searching for glimmers of light, I stoke my own. That seems to draw more light.

“We are in danger of becoming defined and dominated by our tools. Our powers and techniques are truly titanic: monstrous and divine at once. We are caught in a multitude of contradictions established by the powers we have unleashed. We are indeed made weak by what we have thought, for our tools are our thoughts "made flesh." We are overcome by these literally real abstractions in a global society of a generalized communication and the unfettered flow of things. This world without boundaries is wracked with violence, madness, and despair-for overhanging it all is that final abstraction made real, that infinite counterweight to any physicist's Theory of Everything, the nuclear bomb. We find ourselves caught between the abyss of a horrible "freedom" and the finality of an annihilating constraint, amidst the wreckage of nature and of human hopes.“

Tom puts it out there...

“It is time for each of us to make a choice. If we are not to perish in the flux of history we must follow Corbin's lead and take a stand against it. His entire work constitutes an invitation to choose, not for ourselves, but for our Angel and for the Angel of the Earth. In order to gain access to the experience of the soul of the world upon which our own souls depend we need a method, a theoria. To take a stand against the powers that threaten to engulf us we need a countertechnology. We need techniques to oppose the immense powers that threaten to annihilate all the rich diversities of the world, both cultural and natural. And we need the means to resist the perils of nihilism that threaten to weaken our determination, undermine our sense of the ultimate worth of the human soul, and that give support to the insidious darknesses that dissolves us from within.”

Perhaps. I can feel by my embrace of now I stand against history. In becoming sensitive to the subtle, I have been been born again as an earth angel, the smelliest of goats?! I share the very personal experience of being faced with the rise of history and the un-real god now alive as an abstract monster on earth.

We can’t go back and we can’t make a utopia, but we can take responsibility. We are a living part of the world and strengthening that connection brings the psyche of the world into focus. To liberate the imagination from the control of the powerful is no easy thing.

How can it be done?

“It takes the moment of nothingness that is the result of the encounter with the Deus absconditus. It requires the destruction of human meaning that Joyce called the "abnihilisation of the etym." This is part of the task of hermeneutics. In Corbin's vision, the soul and the world are not divisible, and hermeneutics is their sitnultaneous development. Speech and song are the primordial technologies of the soul. A countertechnology based on this insight would consist in an attempt to reclaim the roots of language, of the soul, and of the world from their domination by the powers of abstraction and universalization, whether these are technological, economic, or political. These roots are to be sought not in the universal, abstract, and general, but in the individual, the oral, the local, and the particular."'

This provides the answer to the question that may be the central question of the Abrahamic prophetic tradition: Who is Khidr? There is a hint of the answer in his name: Khidr is the "Verdant One." He is the Green Man. He is the Angel of the Face and the Angel of the Earth as hermeneut: the Verus Propheta revealed to each soul in the form in which each is able to receive it. It is to this hermeneutics that we now turn.”

Fuckin A, the Green Man came to me in a way I could receive him, literally in my garden. It is beyond my understanding and mysterious.

Whatever else happens, it happened in a comprehensible way here. That’s all I can speak of. This book is insanely synchronistic.

After you finish that Green Man book roll the pages into joints and burn them. Inhale the smoke deeply, blow it out and watch it drift away.

Bwahahaha!

The Shaman smokes the Green Man for breakfast.

Hehe

Please, Aaron,

You needn’t play the fool.  Listen....... you might learn something.  

I agree with smelly...... we can’t fight City Hall.  

We embrace City Hall, we love it to death.  

This will be easy.  City Hall is divided against itself........ science v religion.

Science and religion are both absolutist, each in their own way.  

All that we have to do is transform ourselves into relationalists..... into interpersonalists.  

With interpersonalism, we have the wedge issue to end all wedge issues.  

The new technology we have at our disposal is portal technology....... just in the nick of time.  

Henry attempted to immanentize the Eschaton.  smelly has immanentized his personal eschaton.  That is no mean feat.

Isn’t that enough, Aaron asks?  

Yes and no, Aaron..........

It may be enough for each of us, individually, but there is ample indication that it will not be enough for the world.

Here is where the Green One enters, or re-enters our story......

The Green One is paradise lost....... the primordial state of Nature..... or of the individual...... the uncontaminated Self....... uncontaminated by civilization.  

How do we make our way back to Paradise?  

Many suppose that we must turn the clock back.

I suggest that Paradise is hidden within the Eschaton.

This is what the prophetic tradition states........ heaven lies on the other side of the Tribulation.

Both smelly and Aaron accept this outcome as a given...... they each have a personal pod/portal to circumvent the Tribulation.



(cont.......)

After I posted the sbove, I drew the star in two decks then the hermit in a third.

My insides say I’m right on it, right fucking on point in the still point.

I can see it now and smell it.

So consider or take with a grain of salt.

The muppet can’t see the significance of Tom and the Green Man now.

The smelly goat doesn’t waste his time, I am focused, not distracted.

All Green Man and Khadir contact is relevant, Pan sleeps, he is not dead.

Our postmodern world is dying, as all cycles do and it is being reborn at the same time.

We do not destroy science and religion, we meld them in the imagination, back to our source.

Science vs religion is the literal conflict.

Prophecy and history is heading somewhere, you can’t stop it, so we can be like, let’s go with the flow or let’s let down steam off.

The world is mentally ill, it’s bad, real bad.

But that only makes totally obvious what to do, to have your own Apocalypse and Disclosure.

Tom C and Corbin’s work is so fucking right on point!

Tom is obviously moving from zen mind.

He was terrified by what he saw coming toward us.

Something wicked this way comes and it is us.

But it’s ok to be dissolved as the yolk so that the child may live.

That’s nature.

We live in the world of the false god.

But I agree with Tom and Corbin, who I see speaking from the heart, we cannot shrink from it.

I speak from the heart.

Like knows like.

I’d pay attention to what appears or don’t, stupid muppets will be stupid about this.

Bwahahaha!

Tom and Henry see the handwriting on the wall.  

There is nothing we can do about it, individually......... just let Nature take it’s course.  

Don’t fight Nature.

This is true for those of us who believe in the Eternal Return.

I don’t happen to believe in Eternal Return.



(cont.......)

Continuing into this amazing stream...

Tom Cheetham wrote:If we recognize the realm of the imaginal as the mediating world between the purely physical and the purely spiritual then the schism between them can begin to heal.

Matter need no longer be confused with the demonic/Daimonic.

Indeed, everything becomes material. What had been conceived as spiritual reality becomes the realm of subtle bodies, and there is a continuum from the dense to the subtle that corresponds to an intensification of being. It is possible for any of the beings belonging to the world of Light to become more real, more themselves, more individual and intense in their very being. We begin to suspect then that the true meaning of the word substance is fading from our consciousness. We tend to think of the spiritual as disembodied, diaphanous, even abstract. We set spirit on one side, and matter on the other, and increasingly only the material, the manipulable, has any real importance, any "substance."

But when priority is given to the imaginal, the dichotomy between substance and spirit collapses.

The spiritual is substantial. It is not disembodied. It is here and now. This is how we can reclaim a sense of the substantial presence and the concrete significance of human life. The "real work" for us is simultaneously a spiritual, ethical, and physical struggle. Like can only be known by like: this means that thought and being are inseparable, that ethics and perception are complementary. The form of the soul is the form of your world.

We can trace this substrate right back to the Paleolithic. In recalling the poetic or cognitive function of sympathy, Corbin is calling us to recover what the poet Gary Snyder calls the "mythological present." Snyder writes:

To live in the "mythological present" in close relation to nature and in basic but disciplined body/mind states suggests a wider-ranging imagination and a closer subjective knowledge of one's own physical properties than is usually available to men living (as they themselves describe it) impotently and inadequately in "history"-their mind-content programmed, and their caressing of nature complicated by the extensions and abstractions which elaborate tools are.... Poets, as few others, must live close to the world that primitive men are in: the world, in its nakedness, which is fundamental for all of us-birth, love, death; the sheer fact of being alive.... In one school of Mahayana Buddhism, they talk about the "Three Mysteries." These are Body Voice and Mind. The things that are what living is for us, in life. Poetry is the vehicle of the mystery of Voice.The universe, as they sometimes say, is a vast breathing body.

This is gold.

Recently I felt led to post recorded heart readings.

There is power in the voice.

I will be finishing Green Man today and I’ll share the net of how to engage history.

This is all here and now and can be comprehended and engaged directly.

We are the embodiment of breath and it’s our breath we follow and can rest in. The same breath of love can be felt at cosmos level and at our own limited personal resolution.

Limitless lacked limit, that’s our world.

Watching the prickly play games with the gooey, that is our world.

What is being shared is how to merge the prickly goo.

Another incredible book is one by Iain McGilchrist. He is a Polymath and quite brilliant and very zen and flexible.

He is the template for the philosopher scientist for me.

https://www.amazon.com/Master-His-Emissary-Divided-Western-ebook/dp/B003ZSHUG6

Amazing and dense book.

He is also connected to Jordan Peterson.

They are all waking up and noticing the other ducks in the stream and they are hooking up.

I see a real powerful move of the subtle behind all of this.

This wants to be known in the world, the spiritual and physical are collapsing into each other.

Iain provided some very interesting science on how the frontal cortex limits the left and right. And how we may be in the middle of a massive shift of mind and we how we have gone partly insane in the process.

Before I met Dan I had no sense of the evolution of Science, Philosophy and Metaphysics, but now I have a rough esoteric and exoteric outline of History and things make more sense and seem much more a set of overlapping processes and systems beyond any single muppets ability to sense without help and personal enhancement.

You awaken in stages, in waves. I don’t know why I became aware of all of this, never cared before at all, which is evidence of things unseen to me, which I guess is the ultimate point. To learn to listen to the driver and learn to enjoy the view and transcend our schism.

This is a sign of things to come.

The prickly and gooey are constantly merged with the now now now in spontaneous non action.

Wu Wei

Straight on

Anyway...

As much as I push and jostle and joke, I followed the signs here to Iain and the Green Man and to OMF.

My studies that originated from my interactions with Dan have shown me something I never could have guessed before.

So we know what we need when we need it.

That lesson I have learned and I think I have a little more patience and have become a mystic philosopher somehow, which Dan influenced, my true will.

Nothing is needed, it is all done, but still we seem to make choices that can lead to paradise or idolatry.

Don’t know, straight on is all I do to hold onto my sanity.

To melt the idol of self you have to come to the edge of suicide and nihilism.

Many who attempted to know themselves have died in the attempt, which was the point to do before physical death I know now.

Because heaven and hell are not over there, they are here now, in us.

This is the portal then that collapses the physical and spiritual.

Each step prepares one for the next, and all steps lead to Death. My understanding of Death is fading. Just my guess, but Death is seems a phase transition I feel now and I don’t grasp to that out of fear, nor know what it could mean.

The single particle goes through both slits, through no slits, through only the left slit and through only the right.

The prickly and the gooey are in superposition with each other.

You are only speaking to your self.

Don’t know, straight on, singing and grinning.

Don't know

Straight on

Tom Cheetham Green Man wrote:In Ibn `Arabi's cosmology, which was so crucial for Corbin, it is the Breath of the All-Merciful that unites the Cosmos, God, and Language into a single extraordinary animate system of perpetual descent and return.

For Ibn `Arabi, "[l]anguage is an articulation of the breath.... It is an image of the self and of the world outside the self."’ The imaginal world of the breath and human speech expresses the creative power of the divine form because the human self is "a unique articulation of the divine Breath." This Breath speaks itself as both the microcosm of the human self and the macrocosm of the cosmos.

Tom is one wise dude.

What a goldmine.

For me, automatic writing and reading keeps me from thinking and is my meditation.

It’s amazing where the flow can take you when you aren’t driving.

Smelly reads books while they are burning, that is not an easy magic trick to master.

When they burn, you can see and smell and taste the Logos.

Water prevents the flames from destroying all.

There is compassion in the destruction.

The goat walks on the edge of madness.

Who else would try to eat burning logos?

Speaking of burning Logos, my hoofs are on fire...I fart flames out da azz of knowing.



Wow Dan...

Tom Cheetham Green Man wrote:...in what Corbin called a realized eschatology: that is, one that occurs right now.

We are creation, so that’s fairly obvious.

This spoon I hold in my hand is paradise, this cup, these words.

We are now in Heaven.

Tom weaves a lot of threads together now...

Tom Cheetham Green Man wrote:Corbin devoted many pages to the work of Immanuel Swedenborg. For Swedenborg as for Corbin, the ego must be opened to the influx of its angel. It must be opened, that is, to the world beyond its narrow personal confines, toward its true Self. In Heaven, whether we achieve it in this life or in the next, the form of your world is what you are, just as in the Sufism of Najm Kubra. David Loy, an authority on Buddhism, writes of Swedenborg: "To be spiritual is nothing more than being open to, and thereby united with, the whole.... We are in heaven right now if our internals are open, according to Swedenborg, and nirvana is to be attained here and now, according to Sakyamuni muni Buddha."

Blake felt Swedenborg drunk on Angels.

Being human is about being open to a merged psycho-physical mode of being.

smelly,

Yes, Cheetham thinks he can find a balance between Mind and Cosmos.  

He is trying to impose eternal return onto the Big Bang.  It doesn’t work.  

There is no way to juxtapose Mind and the Big Bang.  One will end up swallowing the other.  

He is unwilling to take the leap of imagination, which provides our only path forward.  

However, I will admit that he does a good job of setting the stage for the ultimate leap.


5:00...........

Ok, if we are in heaven already, then what is the Big Bang doing in heaven......?  a bit out of place, wouldn’t you say?    



(cont.......)

Well, I don’t read him that way, that’s interesting.

He would say that the return is always now now now.

Zen is the foundation or correspondence here for a lot of his and Corbin’s work.

That’s not an accident why one led me to Tom.

Tom is just saying the psyche and physical are not distinct and we can embrace this.

That’s intuitive right on to me.

You can’t judge poetry or talk about poetry with any meaning, you have to speak poetry and that connects back to the real.

It’s an atrophied sense in humans.

We can’t make a way out from the left mind.

Just isn’t going to happen, there is the fallen god destroying all of this.

Wu wei and Zen helps here to connect up all these threads and reconnect the abstractions back to their source through sensing them.

smelly,

Cheetham should read Barfield.  Obviously he hasn’t.  

You have, and you should know better.

You and Cheetham are simply looking for excuses to ignore everything outside of yourselves........ science, religion, history, etc.......

You are both attempting to return to the Womb. You both suppose that Nature is your womb.

How, in God’s name, can you appeal to the prophetic tradition, in returning to the Womb.

You both suppose that God died........ on the cross. You are half right.



(cont........)

I have spoken, I thought clearly, how they see prophecy and the subtle experience as opposite sides of the same coin and balancing.

Corbin, Jung, Barfield and Tom seem to all be saying a very similar thing about imagination as the bridge that brings the physical back to the pyschic reality.

Barfield basically says poetry is living logos and brings us back to ourselves.

They all see our consciousness evolving and see the shift from presocratic to rational logical man and see us having veered off course.

Tom speaks of final participation like Barfield. I think he knows Barfield.

Why do you think them in conflict?

I am quoting Tom below say exactly opposite what you accuse him of.

You don’t understand us Dan.

You have to write poetry and hear the song.

Shrug.

Tom Cheetham Green Man wrote:A language is concrete, like Arabic, when the words are pregnant with itnages. Poetic language in any tongue can be concrete in this way. Image opens onto image, landscape onto landscape, stitching the inner and outer together and enacting the sympathies between beings by means of perceptions of the subtle relations that link all things. This requires subtlety and attention and perceptual skills that have atrophied in us from lack of use.

We have Freud and Jung to thank for taking seriously the procession of images, the theater of the life of the soul, for the "talking cure" that recognizes the power of language to transform, and for the amplification that extends our reach into the unknown places where our souls and the world interact. But, as James Hillman has argued for many years now, we need to move beyond the inner-directed emphasis of much psychotherapy to the complex and difficult task of working in that intermediate realm of the alchemical, of subtle bodies, where the geographies of nature and the landscapes of the human soul interpenetrate.

We have to learn to inhabit a world where the human and the more-than-human meet in mutual presence.

Yes.

Hillman knew Barfield and felt him one of the greatest thinkers of the 20th century and Tom knows Hillman well. Many ideas from Barfield’s Poetic Diction and Man and Meaning are in Corbin, Tom’s and Hillman’s work.

It’s all the same stream man.  

Catch up

Do your homework, don’t be lazy.

I could write as Masters Thesis on the connections between Zen and all these Dudes.

It’s incredible how connected all this is.

I love hearing Owen talk.