Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

First topic message reminder :

Testing.......

Yes, it is working.

Congratulations to Cyrellys & Co.!

I will be continuing the BPWH blog from Compass Morainn, which was a continuation from the original OMF site on ProBoards, which is in the process of being re-archived from that site.



(cont.)

Just a quick side note Dan....a question was posed by a Evangelical Christian Hebrew scholar, Dr. Michael Heiser

OMF member "ScaRZ" posted it on another thread here "Can Unbelievers Please God?"

I find the very asking of the question to be curious in itself.

My reply and questions here.

Dan, is this concept of "pleasing God" common within the social Christian dialog at GFC? How common would you say it is throughout the USA?

Thanks

I am also curious what John's observations would be.

Jake,

Let me get back to you in a minute....... but first I want to post my continuing answer to another email interview question from Gary........

Gary:: Next question: "What is eschatology and why and how have you integrated it into your world view?"

Answer:: A best possible world, virtually by definition, cannot be infinite, in either time or space.  Given that there is a creative cosmic intelligence, which is the most economical way to explain the human mind and the apparent design of the world, then the next question concerns the optimum size and duration of a world containing sapient beings.  

Suffice it to say that it would have a duration that is considerably less than the apparent duration of the visible universe.  So what's going on with the universe?  

I am simply suggesting that the best possible created world would not appear to be created.  It would appear to be as natural as possible.  That is a fundamental design principle for a BPW.....  the Creator should cover her tracks, should not leave fingerprints, except possibly on our souls.  

Here is my next point........ Creation necessarily includes its own space-time manifold.  Albert Einstein, with his General Theory of Relativity, demonstrated how this might be possible, even within a purely physical context.  Cosmologists now suppose that space and time came into existence with the Big Bang.  Where would that leave our would-be Creator?  Beyond space and time?  

(cont.)

Back to Jake's question about the pleasing of God...........

Is it not a basic part of human nature to want to be loved, sometimes even unto death? This is a much stronger desire than to simply be pleasing. Also, note, that we often don't distinguish between loving and wanting to be loved. Reciprocity and mutuality are the essence of love.

Does God love unbelievers? Does a mother love her reprobate child? Of course she does! Can God do less?

Can God love that which he finds unpleasing? Or, more significantly, can he find unpleasing, that which he loves? I doubt it.

God gave us free-will for a reason........ So that there could exist true love. That not every one of his creatures falls into love with him, might sadden him, but does that lessen his love for them? Does his passion for each and every one of us, not exist until our dying breath, if not even beyond that?

This is what you and I were discussing about Hell...... It is impossible to shut ourselves off from God, whether we know it or not. Hell is the absence of God. No one can exist there, and, therefore, Hell cannot exist....... QED!

Some Christians might then wonder..... Why do we need Jesus, if salvation is already guaranteed? Is Jesus merely the icing on the Cake?

Let me say this about that.........

The more loving we are, the more human we become. Can we fully realize our human potential without also realizing our God-like potential? Can we fully realize our God-like potential without the ever present example of Jesus, in ourselves and others? Is that just the icing on the Cake of our humanity? Not if we are destined to achieve at-one-ment with God. Will it be a surprise if Jesus turns out to be the single most important ingredient in that achievement? Hardly!



Now, back to Gary's question about the Eschaton.........

This question goes to the heart of the BPWH. It can be fully appreciated only from that total context.

This is particularly a problem for the modern-minded theist, for whom the heavens declare the glory of God, and who positively revel in their insignificance relative to the Creator and his allegedly infinite Creation. Jake admirably represents this PoV.

(Can such a person truly be realizing their God-like potential? That remains problematic, IMHO. Does this mean that they are missing out on the glory-train? God has all the time in the world! I should hasten to add, that no individual can realize their full potential, outside of the global eschatological context. The Glory train won't leave, can't leave, until everyone is aboard.)


My simplest point to Gary is that Creation must be an organic unity, if we are to participate in the body of God. This can occur only within a Self-contained system.

We must be able to see ourselves as blood brothers and sisters. Obviously, we could never do that, within an infinite Creation.

Many suppose that the Earth is too big for us ever to see ourselves as one family. I will say this....... the tremendous size of the Earth, compared with any individual, was clearly meant to be the ultimate challenge to our capacity to love all our fellow creatures. Can we meet this challenge? We of little faith! Communications technology will be used to its utmost, but only the Spirit can ultimately prevail.

We can meet this global challenge only if we see it as the ultimate goal, only if we can put every ounce of our being into it. Can we have our eyes on the stars, while we are doing this? Can we serve two masters? Suffer attention deficit? No. This final challenge must be our be all and end all!

We're all in the same boat, and there is only one boat. There are no life boats. We don't have enough provisions to turn back to the dock. Our destination is neither of the Earth, nor of the stars. We have a one-way ticket. Our navigational chart comes only with Disclosure/Revelation. That is what I construct here....... Who are we, from whence did we come, and whither do we go?


3:20---------

Is it God's fault, then, that he has tempted us with the stars, and allowed us to become distracted with our Blue Sky dreams?

I do speak of Salvation as being a bait and switch operation, and, yes, we have certainly taken the bait! Even our little grey brothers seem to be beckoning us to the stars.

So, am I suggesting that there has been a cosmic conspiracy to deceive us into thinking that we were lost in space and time? I most certainly am!


Shouldn't God apologize to us for this deception? Is this some sort of tough-love gambit? But, even if it were, how could we later come to trust the perpetrator of this deception? It won't be easy, that's for sure.

We've all heard of the prodigal son, but what about the prodigal Father? Our absentee Dad? Do we rush to embrace him? Well, one thing that comes out of the BPWH is that we have met the Father, and he is us! Thanks a lot, Dad! How else was he supposed to break this news to us? Can you think of a less shocking way to do it? Are we supposed to be thankful, and be glad that half a father is better than none? Half a father today is better than a whole one tomorrow? That's not going to go over too well at GFC.


Disturbing message? How about just shoot the messenger?!

Not only was God waiting for us to run out of provisions, he was also waiting for us to just forget about him. Maybe it was supposed to be less shocking, then, when he shows up in a full body cast, looking for pity. Pretty pitiful. Maybe his love has not been tough enough?

God should expect to get hammered from both sides..... both by the scientists and by the religionists. We might wonder if God wouldn't arrange to send a scapegoat. Yes, but he's already tried that trick, before. Fool me once......! Do we have to end up just blaming ourselves? Who else? Well, who put us in the fix? Did we put ourselves here? Yes and no.


6---------

Why is there something, rather than nothing.... even if it were the best possible something? The pantheists do blame it on ourselves and our karma. Does hope spring eternal, even if nothing else does?

How do I explain all of this in one sentence, for Gary? And just what have I explained? Why the world has to end, ASAP?! Why we couldn't even get a real Big Bang out of it..... just a pretend one?

Come to think of it, those pantheists are pretty amazing..... surviving all these millennia, praying only for oblivion. Is that tough love? Who are we to complain? Is it simply fear or instinct that keeps us going..... not knowing what is or is not, on the other side? We do cling tenaciously.

Even if immaterialism could, somehow, be proven, how would that suffice? Certainly not by itself. We still need to know what is on the other side. Cosmic intelligence? Yes, almost certainly that. That is better than a lot of empty space, we might suppose. Will it be worth the trip, worth our sojoun down here? How much is the trip worth? Does God owe us? Is he already in arrears?

It might all be just one big bootstrap, which is what the pantheists suppose. There is no there, there. I would agree that we should not be buying a pig in a poke. We should keep our powder dry, what we have left of it. But what is the bet, here, that we can hedge? There is very little doubt that we are up against the wall, if the nuts&bolts ufologists will forgive my skepticism. And even if they do come with their rescue ships, will that not just postpone the inevitable? It is hard for me to imagine that we are not some kind of Chrysalis? Why have all those pantheists not been able to imagine this? Is my imagination that much more powerful? I rather doubt it! All we're looking for is some sort of closure. I think that even the pantheists believe that. Streets of gold? Seventy-two virgins? That could get old, rather quickly. How much closure do we need? How much are we missing? Are we all missing just a few smidgens of love? What makes us think that? Does the cosmos owe us more love? Show us the ledger. The hard-nosed scientists will merely scoff...... what goes up must come down, period! Are more heavenly peep-shows going to keep us down on the farm, or keep us enthralled?

I have to say, though, that I still believe that a little coherence could help to alleviate some of our alienation. Is this just for intellectuals? What will the rest of us get out of this, that we are not already getting out of our religions or from our simple pleasures and routines?

Is the Eschaton supposed to be a stick or a carrot? The stick part is easy enough to perceive. The carrot part is much less so, except that we may hope that we can only be beaten to death once or twice. It may not be a good omen that the stick seems to be so necessary. Where is the free-will? Besides the stick, there is only the MoAPS. I wouldn't shake a stick at it, but once we go into a global tail-spin, the possibility of a MoAPS would be just about the first thing to be jettisoned.




(cont.)

Back to your post yesterday...

Yes, Dan and I are more on the same page in our verbal conversation than in our written debates. It appears Dan, you are shyly reserved in what you write.

I look forward to Gary's QA interview with you.

I enjoyed Jack Sarfatti's. I see nothing wrong with shooting for the Stars. And yes, we will find the 'Logos' there too. G-d doesn't reserve Love solely for humanity. And I agree with Jack that we could do it within a century, if we set our minds to it. It would be a much wiser pursuit than turning the Middle East into rubble. And while we patiently await mankind's awakening to the spirit, we have to keep our hands busy somehow. Turning the MIC into space machine builders would be a welcome sight to humanity.

dan wrote:

Back to Jake's question about the pleasing of God...........
>
>
>
>
>
Now, back to Gary's question about the Eschaton.........

Wait! Although you answered Michael Heiser's question nicely, you didn't answer my questions.

Dan, is this concept of "pleasing God" common within the social Christian dialog at GFC? How common would you say it is throughout the USA?


Thanks

Jake,

There are only a handful of Christians with whom I regularly interact..... those at GFC/SfA. I don't recall that this particular phrase has ever been used, but, OTOH, I don't see how any theist could could not want to be pleasing to God, day in and day out....... No?

And would they agree with my earlier assessment of the matter, from God's perspective? Many or most would not.



I will continue with my response to Gary's question, back in the above post..........

dan wrote:Jake,

There are only a handful of Christians with whom I regularly interact..... those at GFC/SfA. I don't recall that this particular phrase has ever been used,

K, thanks.

but, OTOH, I don't see how any theist could could not want to be pleasing to God, day in and day out....... No?

Of course! but the word 'pleasing' is suspect in this context. I was more interested in of the theological water-down implications by the willful adoption this cultural social meme.

And would they agree with my earlier assessment of the matter, from God's perspective? Many or most would not.

Yes, sectarian self-righteousness is alive and thriving in Christianity. And thus why my concern in this meme, as it psychologically supports self-righteous sectarianism, and implies guilt upon those who don't adapt it. The apostles did not preach that people should try to "please" God. As you have pointed out.

Nuff said. Thanks Dan. As you were.

@Dan, in response to what you've written today....


Implications concerning the irrefutable scientific discovery of the human soul?

It inherently opens the "Grand Portal". Likened to a personal experiential revelation to the spirituality and oneness of all creation. A vivid NDE experience expanding throughout the global human consciousness.

----------------------------------

The primary findings of the Grand Portal can be reduced to four fundamental knowledge systems. They are:

1. The soul carrier function is muted or diminished in proportional sympathy to the species’ perception of soul.

2. The species is unified at multiple levels that transcend time and place. This unification is essential to its vibrant survival as well as its ascension pathway as a spiritual force that animates and preserves the knowledge defined by the species.

3. The species is innately connected to a vast network of related life forms each based on the biogenetic soul carrier archetype of the Central Race [Elohim] specific to its superuniverse. Collectively, these species represent the cellular structure of First Source, while the individuated consciousness represents the indivisible particle thereof.

4. The individuated consciousness is orchestrated by the species to produce a knowledge path that leads the species to its creator and upholder. It is this return – like a migratory journey enjoined by a fierce tailwind – that is accelerated by the Grand Portal.

The individual is not existential, nor truly independent of the species. The individual is not supreme, nor is it the reward of consciousness. The individual is less an artifact of First Source [Creator] than it is of the species. The soul carrier is ultimately transformed and fused with the individuated consciousness to the point it is indiscernible as a separate component of consciousness, but the individual remains devoted to the archetype of the species

>>>

The primary effects of the Grand Portal can be reduced to three major influences. They are:

1. Institutions of science, religion, and culture are reformatted to embrace the science of multidimensional realities as their core, guiding frequency.

2. Government leaders are obliged to restructure their political systems to allow for the integration of new systems of knowledge, specifically of the multidimensional universe and the extended brotherhood of intelligent beings that live therein.

3. Social institutions related to trade and enterprise are reengineered to support the technologies that arise from the discovery of the Grand Portal. These technologies dramatically alter the way of life on a planetary scale. These include soul carrier health, species continuation planning, ecosystem stability, and harmonization of species in service to a planetary educational system.

>>>

The areas of resistance to the Grand Portal are predictable if not avoidable. Resistance is largely predicated on three basic factors:

1. Is particle energy used as a weapon and/or an energy resource?

2. Is religion fragmented or unified?

3. Is machine intelligence managed by species’ intelligence?

>>>

Socio-Political Resistance
Because particle energy is a core component of the Grand Portal discovery, the species is aware of the inherent power of particle energy before it has discovered the Grand Portal. This awareness can provide unlimited resources for energy production, and it can also be a weapon of coercion to seize control of planetary resources.

If the species is using particle energy as a weapon of intimidation amongst its own members, it is more likely to resist the approach of the Grand Portal because the discoveries of the Grand Portal introduce an indisputable range of intelligent life forms whose relationships are initially uncertain. Because of this perceived shift in the balance of supremacy, the evidence of the Grand Portal is resisted and there is a comprehensive stratagem to conceal it.

>>>

Religious Resistance
Among species whose religious and spiritual identities are fragmented, religious leaders are essentially in competition. That is to say, leadership has chosen to define the spiritual worlds and individual purpose therein differently. This is common among species that have partial activation of the soul carrier’s sensorial capacity. This fractional capacity is precisely the cause of discordant views by spiritual leaders, and the resulting rivalry is the primary cause of resistance expressed by spiritual leaders when the Grand Portal is discovered.

The resistance generally takes the form of skepticism initially and evolves into indignation and ridicule. Unlike the social and political leaders who can operate in stealth through well-concealed stratagem, spiritual leaders generally resist the Grand Portal after it is discovered and announced, and do so openly.

>>>

Technology Resistance
As the species evolves its communication network, machine intelligence begins to eclipse species’ intelligence. Machines of super-intelligence are built that – if not properly managed by the species – can self-evolve at a velocity greater than organic evolution, overtaking the embedded management protocols and allowing machines to dominate the frontiers of science and technology.

When this occurs, the Grand Portal can still be discovered, but the species itself is not sufficiently prepared to assimilate the findings and apply them in service to the formation of new institutions and the transformation of existing ones. When the Grand Portal is revealed solely by machine intelligence, the discovery is hollow and its propagation is typically reserved for the intellectually elite of the species.

The Grand Portal’s discovery is far less significant than the diffusion and propagation of its findings to the species’ educational institutions and planetary scientific class. The discovery holds the promise of the activation of the soul carrier’s sensorial system, which is an intelligence accelerator of significant value to the species.

Species who have both fragmented spiritual identities and deploy particle energy as weapons are among the most resistant to the Grand Portal evidence. Typically the resistance is twofold:

1. Political operatives predict the dawning of the Grand Portal discovery and a stratagem for its concealment is initiated before the discovery can be adequately corroborated and proven irrefutable.

2. When the stratagem to conceal fails and the evidence is distributed to the network, spiritual leaders offer the next wave of resistance by doubting the motivations of those leaders responsible for its discovery, since all or most do not subscribe to the belief systems defined and/or upheld by the spiritual leaders.


The period immediately preceding the discovery of the Grand Portal is the most critical. This episode of time is known as the Attestation Period, the time when critics will rise with full voice and unrestrained reluctance to resist the implications of the Grand Portal because they are aware – dimly as it may be – that massive change undermines their control impulse. It is a time when spiritual leaders and politicians join forces to repel this intricate and complex metaphysical and scientific revelation.

This is why the protocols are so carefully engineered to ensure that the leaders involved in the Grand Portal discovery operate skillfully to ensure that resistance is met with intelligent countermeasures that bring the proof of the human soul to the network in a way that cannot be censored, altered or restrained. The network itself will reveal the human soul in a way that is unimaginable and therefore indefensible.

Just this morning........

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9597345/Afterlife-exists-says-top-brain-surgeon.html

Md02,

I'm glad to see that the Newsweek cover story on NDE's, that Gary forwarded to me, and that I mentioned on Tuesday, is also being reported abroad.


Jake,

In your above scenario, there is much mention of technology, and very little of Spirit. Before we can proceed further with our discussion, you need to decide whether, on your view, Creation is more spirit-like or machine-like.



Now back to Gary's question....... Why does the BPWH feature an Eschaton?

This question goes to the heart of the BPWH. The heart of the the BPWH is immaterialism. This is, admittedly, a very radical perspective. Are there not some less radical alternatives that should be considered first? Well, there have only ever been three flavors of cosmology......

1.) Materialism

2.) Dualism or Deism.

3.) Pantheism...... including panpsychism, vitalism, informationalism, etc.

With the BPWH, I am introducing a new flavor of cosmology, which I would also call Theism, in the 'pure' sense of that term. How so......?

Most followers of the prophetic tradition have referred to themselves as theists, mainly to distinguish themselves from the deists. Deism is the form of theism that arose in conjunction with science, and which put Cartesian dualism on a cosmological footing. It was the idea of the Watchmaker universe, with God being the watchmaker. The only deviations from the mechanical principles of physics would come at the Alpha and the Omega, and, maybe, at the X-event, if you wished to not deny Christianity. With those three exceptions, the Creator adhered to a strict hands-off policy wrt Creation.

Since that time, religion has been engaged in a rearguard defense, against the seemingly inevitable advance of science. The only continuing resistance has come from the creationists, with their various God of the Gaps arguments. This is simply a slightly amended form of Deism, and has arisen only in response to Darwinism.

The only other way that the Deity might operate within such a mechanical universe was though us, the sapient creatures, and so, hopefully, to bring about moral progress, mainly through evangelism. But then along came Darwin, who totally upset the deist and creationist apple carts, and then raised the specter of Progress.

Basically, the deists, of mainstream Christianity, took on-board the notion of Perpetual progress, which also happened to coincide with the notion of a free-market, global capitalism, along with a darker undercurrent of social Darwinism. These views have most recently come to the surface in the T-party movement.

Do I have a problem with this worldview? Yes, I do.......

If you subscribe to perpetual progress, then you should be an ardent follower of SETI and Ufology. I can hardly fail to notice, however, that there is precious little mainstream support for either SETI or Ufology. What is the problem, we might wonder?

It's very simple, really, the true-believers of the gospel of Perpetual Progress are failing to practice what they preach. Why not?

The answer is to be found in the notion of Transhumanism.........

The obvious question is whether you can be both a humanist and a Transhumanist. The obvious answer is..... No!

In the small print of some of the Transhumanist manifestos, you will see mention of SMI2LE. This is simply Social Darwinism writ large...... turned into a cosmology! Nay, turned into an cosmic Idol, clearly to be worshiped....... to the point that we would gladly give up our souls to It!


12:30---------

Like most of us who have subscribed to the Cosmic Idol, we did so, unwittingly...... implicitly, never quite explicitly. Amongst theoretical physicists, this idolatry is most commonly expressed as Pythagoreanism or Spinosism, with Einstein being the modern exponent of this view.

This is simply another version on pantheism, although most Pythagoreans would look down their noses at their fellow traveling pantheists and vitalists.


Ok, so having taken the Grand Tour, let's get back to the BPWH&Theism...........

Clearly, we must navigate between the Scylla of Deism and the Charybdis of Pantheism. I maintain that this may be accomplished only by adhering, quite strictly, to a transcendental/relational version of immaterialism, in which, sapience plays a special role, with we sapient creatures being the co-Creators of our Best Possible World. It's just that simple. Why has this rather obvious possibility been neglected for so long? Purely for historical reasons, which I shall outline below, after tackling the Eschaton......!



1:20----------

If the optimum population of the BPW is not infinity, then the next most likely possibility is the projected population of the Earth, or 10^10 souls.

Many mansions has my Father's house? I should hope so, but with the caveat that Earth is the Grand Central Station, and with the likely additional caveat that the J-man is our Stationmaster. Ok? I suspect that this might add only an additional <~10^9 souls.

These considerations provide a pretty good window on the timing for the activation of Jake's Grand Portal/Rapture........

Given the current drawdown of our nonrenewable resources, we have probably already overreached our optimal sustainable population, by a very significant factor. Therefore, in order to avoid an horrendous die-off, there will have to be introduced a 'plan' for either an Exodus or a Rapture, ASAP.


2:45------------

IOW, until a comprehensive plan of rescue may be embraced by humanity, we can and should expect that the competition for dwindling resources will become our overriding passion.

That this competition, abetted by WMD's and a global financial meltdown, could abruptly degenerate into global chaos, should be anticipated.

How close are we to this Brink? Who knows? Is it too early to begin a discussion of our options? Is there a signal that we are waiting for?




(cont.)

dan wrote:
Jake,

In your above scenario, there is much mention of technology, and very little of Spirit. Before we can proceed further with our discussion, you need to decide whether, on your view, Creation is more spirit-like or machine-like.

Dan,
This knee-jerk is an example of how religious resistance might project itself.

While the scenario posted is entirely directed toward man's discovery of his spirit/soul and subsequent spiritual eschaton, you receive it as a religious rivalry and respond by deflection. And ironically, while technology is clearly defined in this scenario as the main resistance to man's spiritual eschaton, you religiously condemn it on the basis that the scenario discusses technology.

Dan, not only have you provided an excellent example of religious resistance in action. But your response also reflects a socio-political resistance.

1. Political operatives predict the dawning of the Grand Portal discovery and a stratagem for its concealment is initiated before the discovery can be adequately corroborated and proven irrefutable.

2. When the stratagem to conceal fails and the evidence is distributed to the network, spiritual leaders offer the next wave of resistance by doubting the motivations of those leaders responsible for its discovery, since all or most do not subscribe to the belief systems defined and/or upheld by the spiritual leaders.

Most peculiarly your resistance to this discovery, is self-contradictory to your publicly stated goals.

Jake,

Allow me, then, to be more specific..... by asking you to specify what would be the role of mind over matter, in your cosmology?



(I will continue, within the previous post, with my answer to Gary......).

dan wrote:Jake,

Allow me, then, to be more specific..... by asking you to specify what would be the role of mind over matter, in you cosmology.

Your question appears to arises from either; another form of religious resistance, or, you haven't read the scenario above with sufficient comprehension.

The discovery of the "Grand Portal" discussed in the scenario above, proposes that the realization of "mind over matter" is merely an evolutionary step toward the higher realization of "spirit over mind".

Man's discovery of "mind or matter" is a transitionary step toward the discovery of the soul. While this discovery is a catalytic gestalt-switch to the "Grand Portal", where spirit transcends mind.

Wonderful, Jake........

Now then, how does your understanding of the Grand Portal differ from your understanding of the Rapture?


(...... and back to my post to Gary.....)

dan wrote:Wonderful, Jake........

Now then, how does your understanding of the Grand Portal differ from your understanding of the Rapture?

Neurosurgeon Dr Eben Alexander's recently published revelatory experience reflects a "Grand Portal" descriptive from an individual perspective. While the "Rapture" reflects a simultaneous group collective revelatory realization.

Fantastic! So how soon may we look forward to the Rapture?

"In 1704, Sir Isaac Newton proposed that, based upon his calculations using figures from the Book of Daniel, the Apocalypse (rapture) could happen no earlier than 2060."

Well, considering that he was looking 350 years into the future, I would suggest that it was an excellent surmise on his part. Too bad he didn't include error bars, or he might have have nailed it.

I've been suggesting 2200 (+~500/-~100 yr)...... almost an overlap!


(....... and back to Gary, on the previous page.......)

Thank you Sparky

dan wrote:Fantastic! So how soon may we look forward to the Rapture?

Within regards to the context of the 'scenario' being discussed, either;

1. Following after the "Attestation Period" proceeding the discovery of the Grand Portal.
- or -
2. Interruptively preceding the near extermination of the human species.

Either would satisfy the "appointed time" requirement. And in both cases, man's 'invested will' determines the primary reactive cause.

Personally, I think #2 is more likely. However, being an incurable optimist I find #1 a worthy and Godly pursuit.

Ok, Jake, let's now refer back to your post #382, on the previous page......

Very clearly, in this post, you are referencing an infinity of worlds in an infinity of dimensions or universes.

Please..... explain to us how long it will take us, either individually, or collectively, to complete our transmigration through these worlds, until we arrive in Eternity/Heaven and achieve our at-one-ment with God?

dan wrote:Ok, Jake, let's now refer back to your post #382, on the previous page......

https://openmindsforum.forumotion.com/t6p375-hello-cy-hello-omf-ii#698

Very clearly, in this post, you are referencing an infinity of worlds in an infinity of dimensions or universes.

My! what an imagination you have. There is no such referencing of any sort in my post. How did you "very clearly" get that?

Please..... explain to us how long it will take us, either individually, or collectively, to complete our transmigration through these worlds, until we arrive in Eternity/Heaven and achieve our at-one-ment with God?

What craziness is this!? Who believes these things?

I see no way to rationally respond to you.

Jake......

>>> Who believes these things?

Do you NOT believe in........

1.) Transmigration?

2.) Heaven or Eternity?

3.) Our return to the Source?

Why don't you simply revise your question, Dan.

And leave out the "transmigration through an infinity of worlds and an infinity of dimensions/universes before finally arriving in Heaven.", craziness.
You know I'm not Hindu. Besides, I don't even think THEY believe such exaggerated gobbly-goop.

Try again.

Oh and Dan, have you arranged the east coast meeting yet? Should I have a packed bag standing by?

Jake,

East coast ufo meeting in November.......? There would no point in my going, without an entourage. Ufologists, as do you, idolize ufos. They have no truck with the likes of mere humans, like me and the J-man. To them, size matters!



I think the basic problem, Jake, is that you simply have not been born again! Neither have any ufologists whom I have ever met. Of course, being a fellow evangelical, you believe that you have been born again, but, let me tell you something....... You ain't seen nuthin', yet!

When I was about twelve, and already several years into the Harvard Astronomy series, our grade school English class was assigned to read the Greatest Story Ever Told. It has had more impact on me than any other book, before or since, and I do say that in retrospect, and even, perhaps, with regard to the bible.

What I'm telling you, Jake, is that when you have been born again, you fully understand that Jesus is brighter than a billion suns. How do I explain this to a solar physicist? It's not easy, but I'm telling you that if I can't do it, someone surely will, and very soon!

Actually, being the Galactic Christian that you are, you may believe that Jesus is as bright as ten billion suns, but, evidently, that is as far as your faith can take you. After that, and in your own mind, there will have to be other, bigger Saviors.

Our poor little J-man just was not built to handle all that cosmic Juice!! What as shame.


So what does this make me...... some sort of Jesus-freak? All I need is a chartreuse micro-bus!

What it makes me, Jake, is a metaphysicist, and the J-guy is my Metaphysician.

But, here again, I know of no physicist who has ever had the slightest grasp of metaphysics. And, OTOH, I know of no metaphysicist who has the slightest understanding of cosmology. So this is why I may have to step up to the SoT plate, and sooner than later, ufo meeting or no ufo meeting.


Why do you not have more faith in Jesus? It's simply because you don't have enough faith in yourself. He told us that, despite all his miracles, we would be performing greater, yes, standing on his shoulders. You simply don't believe that you are either capable or worthy of such exaltation. But, see, in the end, it's not really about you or me. It's about that of God that is in you and me. We just can't stand to think that we are standing that close to God. It is the scariest thought that any of us have ever had.

You can run, Jake, you can run to the farthest galaxy, you can run to the end of the universe, but you cannot run from God. He is always sitting there, right next to us, in the co-pilot's seat. That's the one on the left. You understand this, Jake, but only as an abstraction. You are not truly feeling it. Not quite yet. Maybe, in a few more days, you will actually be able to feel it.

When you do feel it, for the first time, you will understand, for the first time, how puny, how minuscule the universe, the multiverse or the megaverse truly is. They can all fit inside a fingernail of God, and there he is sitting in that seat, right beside you, just waiting for you to turn around and say, hi! That's all it takes, Jake. Everything else in the world is just bubbles and baubles.


How can I explain this to you, Jake? Jesus did not come here to train us to be astronauts. He came here to train us to be God's children, just like himself. What is there in Christ that you do not understand? The only thing, it seems that you do not understand is the Christianity is not rocket science! It's not even brain surgery. It has only ever been a soul science.

Now you see through a glass darkly....... then you will put away your childish things, you will put away your rocket ships, and become a man! That's all it is. That's all it ever has been.




(cont.)

dan wrote:Jake,

East coast ufo meeting in November.......? There would no point in my going, without an entourage. Ufologists, as do you, idolize ufos. They have no truck with the likes of mere humans, like me and the J-man. To them, size matters!

Oh, just another UFO conference? I misunderstood what type of meeting it is. I have little interest in attending those events. Unless there were purpose to it.

I think the basic problem, Jake, is that you simply have not been born again! Neither have any ufologists whom I have ever met. Of course, being a fellow evangelical, you believe that you have been born again, but, let me tell you something....... You ain't seen nuthin', yet!

When I was about twelve, and already several years into the Harvard Astronomy series, our grade school English class was assigned to read the Greatest Story Ever Told. It has had more impact on me than any other book, before or since, and I do say that in retrospect, and even, perhaps, with regard to the bible.

What I'm telling you, Jake, is that when you have been born again, you fully understand that Jesus is brighter than a billion suns. How do I explain this to a solar physicist? It's not easy, but I'm telling you that if I can't do it, someone surely will, and very soon!

Actually, being the Galactic Christian that you are, you may believe that Jesus is as bright as ten billion suns, but, evidently, that is as far as your faith can take you.

Feeling a bit in the doldrums today Dan?

Your praise of "Jesus" is commendable. However I know that in your next breath, you'll be claiming to be Jesus or the very incarnation of the Holy Ghost.

I understand why you don't like all those stars. Because then God becomes bigger than you are able to contain in your comprehension. The competition is exhausting to you.

"The Greatest Story Ever Told", One of my favorites of all time too. It also reminds of a great world empire that is no more. Civilizations come and go, leaving only their ruins and graves. Oh where have they gone...

We agree, this civilization in which we live now, is on the verge of a paradigm inversion. And Will Durant comes to mind. A civilization's fall is always about religion and secular intellectualism;

"Hence a certain tension between religion and society marks the higher stages of every civilization. Religion begins by offering magical aid to harassed and bewildered men; it culminates by giving to a people that unity of morals and belief which seems so favorable to statesmanship and art; it ends by fighting suicidally in the lost cause of the past. For as knowledge grows or alters continually, it clashes with mythology and theology, which change with geological leisureliness. Priestly control of arts and letters is then felt as a galling shackle or hateful barrier, and intellectual history takes on the character of a "conflict between science and religion." Institutions which were at first in the hands of the clergy, like law and punishment, education and morals, marriage and divorce, tend to escape from ecclesiastical control, and become secular, perhaps profane. The intellectual classes abandon the ancient theology and—after some hesitation—the moral code allied with it; literature and philosophy become anticlerical. The movement of liberation rises to an exuberant worship of reason, and falls to a paralyzing disillusionment with every dogma and every idea. Conduct, deprived of its religious supports, deteriorates into epicurean chaos; and life itself, shorn of consoling faith, becomes a burden alike to conscious poverty and to weary wealth. In the end a society and its religion tend to fall together, like body and soul, in a harmonious death. Meanwhile among the oppressed another myth arises, gives new form to human hope, new courage to human effort, and after centuries of chaos builds another civilization."