Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

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Congratulations to Cyrellys & Co.!

I will be continuing the BPWH blog from Compass Morainn, which was a continuation from the original OMF site on ProBoards, which is in the process of being re-archived from that site.



(cont.)

Thank you, Jake. We hope that Gary will be able to post.....

You made quite the speech today, Dan. I see that you enjoyed yourself too. Which is merited. I enjoyed your sprinkling of humour. Good speech.

However, Jake must be Jake....and so...

Your perspective of all that is, why, and where we so go; is quaintly elementary, my dear Watson. Why should you suppose that "God" should roll up the scroll of all creation within a mere couple hundred years from now? Why should you think "God" created all the heavens solely for this lowly world? (It is a quaint ideal. Disney might be inspired, but)

Why is your "God" so small? How can you rationally justify?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRosM1TLyLw



Cheers!

Jake,

Are you hereby denying the rare Earth hypothesis?

Are you denying that Creation could be Christocentric?

dan wrote:Jake,

Are you hereby denying the rare Earth hypothesis?

Are you denying that Creation could be Christocentric?

Your questions are irrelevant to my questions. My questions could be answered without any implied reference to your questions. I have asked you the same type of questions for over 5 years, and you have always deflected them.

I'll answer yours anyway, but I request the same in return. Fair enough?

-----------------------------

1. I can accept as reasonable, the hypothesis of Ward and Brownlee, that quote: "if such [earth like] planets exist, they are likely to be separated from each other by many thousands of light years."

Which means, I can not accept a "rare earth" concept that would suggest only one earth-like planet per galaxy. As I am in support of the Strong anthropic principle (SAP). Which necessarily requires that intelligent life is abundant throughout the Cosmos of the 100's of billions of galaxies.

2a. "Creation being Christocentric" is the only hypothesis that I find to be coherent with all known knowledge.

However I find "only earth/only man" adherents, to be totally irrational.

Let me explain: a spark of the "Logos" incarnated as "a son of man" known today as "Jesus". It is recorded that the world did not recognize him, nor accept him. Now think about that.

How could a 'Logos' be so incompetent that He couldn't even make one world, where his own creation would recognize or accept him? I can't for the life of me understand how anyone could think the creating Source/Logos of the entire Cosmos, to be so stupid.

This is the "Best Possible World" he could come up with?

Why do you so belittle G-d, Dan?

2b. Is Creation Christocentric? = Yes.
Is the Earth Christocentric? = No. But kinda yes, from our lowly relative perspective.

From a heavenly perspective, we're just one of many mansions. And there is a 'Christ/Logos' centro in every one of them.

Michael and Gabriel are not earthlings. Nor are the Visitors. Nor are the rest of 'the Watchers'.

They too are creations of G-d/Source through Logos. For this cause I can not condemn them. Nor can I belittle them as irrelevant or non-existent. I am a mere earthling, in no position to make such judgments. Such would be blasphemous in my view.

------------------------

Your turn to answer Q's.

Enjoy

Jake,

Thank you for your persistence with this question. And, no, I have not answered it, even to my own satisfaction.

Why not? Am I being lazy? Yes, but........

The larger issue that I deal with, wrt the BPWH, is coherence. The coherence is like a net, and you, and the rest of humanity are like fish. Me? I'm the fisherman, of course.

And, like all nets, the BPWH is full of holes. And I have a ball of string that I use to patch the holes. It keeps me busy, like the one-armed paper hanger.

But I think we may be getting close enough for gummin't work, and also to my personal cut-off date of 12^3. Suppose, for instance, that, in the next couple of weeks, I could convince you, as I have Jack, that the BPWH is not implausible, neither physically nor theologically. You, me, Jack and CK, at a ufo meeting, next month, could probably make a splash. And, if plausibly parlayed, it could easily constitute the shot heard 'round the world.

No? Are you game for it? I might, say, pay half of your expenses, were that an issue.

This sort of opportunity is what I've been looking for, from the start, 35 years ago. And this is the closest that it has come to fruition, so far. I'm confident that there will be other opportunities, going forward, but I'm not one to look any gift-horse, in the mouth, and besides, I have been more than a little superstitious about 12^3, for some years, now.

What do say, Jake, are you game for this? Can you spare a few days this month, and a couple of days, next month, for plausibly saving the world? That's all it should take to convince you that the BPWH is not implausible, either physically or metaphysically, and to make an irreversible dent in the ranks of ufology.

#1.) You need to understand, how, last month, after some 20 years of back and forth, I was finally able to convince Jack that the BPWH was not implausible.

#2.) You need to appreciate why Christocentrism continues to hold such a tight grip on the minds of Christians, and why, therefore, they continue to take a very jaundiced view of ufology.

#3.) Hey, that's about it! If you can appreciate the significance of these first two points, you will be ready for our November surprise.

#4.) And then..... you may also appreciate the plausibility of a December Surprise!

#5.) It seems like it is all coming back to you, now, Jake. Are we surprised?


10:10------------

And, gosh, I'm almost starting to believe it, myself......!

And I just got a call from Bill S. about a nearby apologetics meeting that we will be attending on Saturday. And then there will be the second video with PoK. Like I say, things do seem to be on a path of convergence. JR is the main missing link, at this point.

And all he has to do is understand why the rest of Christianity may not be quite as benighted, wrt cosmology, as he presently believes. That's all it would take to put the BPWH express into motion. Is that scary, or what?!


11---------

And the main reason why the average person cannot get into the BPWH is mainly because they don't understand the manner in which it is a package deal. IOW, they have a very hard time getting used to the notion of the coherence theory of truth (CohTT), as opposed to the usual CorTT, i.e. the correspondence theory. Yes, this is the primary obstacle between the modern mind and the cosmic mind, or between beta-thinking and cosmic thinking.

The CohTT seems paradoxical and counter-intuitive to the modern minded person........

In a probabilistic way of thinking, the probability of any (random) set of events or facts, is the product of the probabilities of each event, considered separately or independently. On that view, a chain is no stronger than its weakest link, for example. But with holism, instead of a chain, we have a net or bag, and, as we know, even the strongest person may not be able to fight their way out of a paper bag.

So if we have any reason to believe that a set of events or facts are not independent, then their overall probability takes on a very different, more holistic texture or context. Consider a murder trial, for instance.......

Suppose the suspect has a seemingly ironclad alibi, based on one very credible witness, but there is other, circumstantial, evidence that seems to contradict the witness, and each piece of which may seem rather flimsy. If you have enough of the individually flimsy pieces of evidence that tell another, coherent story, eventually the jury will be persuaded. That's sort of where we are wrt the BPWH.

This sort of argument was first considered from a general/philosophical perspective by Quine, back in 1950, when he considered the holism of language and of scientific theories. This is what we are going to have to deal with, when dealing with religion vs science, from a postmodern and cosmological perspective.

Once Jake, or anyone else, can grok Quine, grasping the BPWH will be like swallowing a gnat.

Now, let's use Quine to examine ufology vs science. In this case ufology is caught between a rock and a hard place. The rock is science, and the hard place is religion. Ufology, despite its best attempts to avoid religion, is stuck in the no man's land between the two archrivals of science and religion.

Consider the paranormal, in general........ Why is the scientific establishment so paranoid about the paranormal? It's very simple, they don't want to end up being like the little old lady who swallowed the fly.......!

Paranormalists, ufologists, etc., fail to understand how vulnerable science is wrt 'uncorrelated' phenomena. In this sense, science is like a balloon, one 'real' paranormal 'prick', and it is all gone! They would end up like the little old lady who swallowed the fly...... you swallow the wrong fly, and pretty soon you will have to swallow the horse, and then you'll be dead, of course. Let's give the scientific establishment some credit..... they are not as stupid as the little old lady.

This is why I knew, from day one, that the R&D show was going to turn the world upside-down. It was just going to take patience, and, yes, it has.

The fly was either going to be a crashed saucer at Area 51, or it would be R&D. Which would we prefer. Well, every ufologists would vastly prefer the crashed saucer. But what about the rest of the world? What would they prefer? Come to think of it, they would also prefer the crashed saucer, if the alternative were to be the Eschaton! That's why they call me Chicken Little.

But, sports fans, this is what the choice finally comes down........ the crashed saucer vs. Chicken Little.

Look, isn't Creation democratic? Don't we creatures get a vote? Don't we count for anything?

Papa knows best? Mama don't 'low no second guessers 'round here?

Well, it may not look like it, but when, the truth is known, it will be seen that I was the biggest Second Guesser of all! That is why it's now fallen to me to tell you why the sky has got to fall. Do I relish the opportunity? Mostly, it will just be a relief and a release. Do I promise to then go quietly into the good night? Well, que-sera........

So, there we have it. I've said about everything I have to say, until Jake gets up his nerve to get back up on our little stage......... and attempts to explain to us why Christians have been so Christocentric, against almost all reason, or so it would seem.


3--------

In the meantime, here are two stories to consider.........

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/04/world/middleeast/clashes-reported-in-tehran-as-riot-police-target-money-changers.html?hp

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/07/magazine/ina-drew-jamie-dimon-jpmorgan-chase.html?hp

Consider the contrasts and links between these two stories. Where are Ina and the London Whale, when we may now need them?

I would suggest that the Whale may have gone to ground.... as in deep-six.... as in, yes, sports fans, ocelot and ferret. That is where the Gnomes of Zurich go, when the sky grows dark.

Allow me to pretend that I had some say......... I would keep the economic pressure on Iran. I would add fuel to the bazaar riots, with all reasonable resources. Yes, Mahmoud is my comrade in arms, but he is not running the country, now, is he. It is, rather, an auspicious time to take down whomever is the current Ayatollah. Mahmoud still has a few more months.

Yes, we do need Iran to stand down from their nuclear posturing, and then we can go after North Korea. Then what......?

Then we firm up our eschatological deals with China and Russia. This can be done mainly through the existing structures, channels and mechanisms surrounding the Security Council, i.e. I would trust the Hill/billies with this one. They know the score..... just ask my dad's friend, Larry R.

Any other questions.....?

It's all about the decision that was made back in 6/91....... It was going to be boots on the ground...... not angels in the sky.


4---------

T will be watching the debate and the O's....... Chuck 3:16....... but this does not show up in Google. The first person to find this reference will go to the head of the class.

Ok, sports fans, and I do mean that, quite literally. This is from the horse's mouth......... There was only ever one edition of the t-shirt with Chuck 3:16. It was printed by the Flock, which then went out of business, perhaps for heresy. But ain't the beer cold...... and that is not a question. 93061, and, no that's not a zip code.......


Yes, I think we do need to stay tuned....... http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/04/world/middleeast/syria.html?hp ......

NATO said it would convene an urgent meeting on the issue Wednesday. Before firing into Syria, Turkey contacted the United Nations and NATO to protest the killings and express its “deepest concern.” Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said she was “outraged” by the mortar attack in Turkey.

You tell 'em, Hill......


5-----------

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/04/world/middleeast/rift-grows-between-netanyahu-and-barak-in-israel.html?hp .....

Just weeks after Mr. Netanyahu was perceived by critics as having meddled in America’s presidential election by criticizing President Obama’s approach to Iran, the Israeli leader’s strained relations with Washington are emerging as a hot electoral issue in Israel. Israelis are anxious about the prospect of an attack on Iran without close American coordination, and they generally view strong ties with the United States as crucial, framing Mr. Netanyahu’s clash with the White House as a rare political weakness.

Hmmm, what will Hill have to say about this.....?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/03/opinion/friedman-china-needs-its-own-dream.html?hp ....

Does Xi have a “Chinese Dream” that is different from the “American Dream?” Because if Xi’s dream for China’s emerging middle class — 300 million people expected to grow to 800 million by 2025  — is just like the American Dream (a big car, a big house and Big Macs for all) then we need another planet.

What have you to say about this, Jake??? Hey, long time, no hear.......


5:40-----------

Call in to Sam and CK. Former is busy, latter's work box is full, and PoK is not answering. You know how it is...... no one likes to be out of the loop......

So Juccce has been working with Chinese mayors and social networks, sustainability experts and Western advertising agencies to catalyze sustainable habits in the emergent consuming class by redefining personal prosperity — which so many more Chinese are gaining access to for the first time — as “more access to better products and services, not necessarily by owning them, but also by sharing — so everyone gets a piece of a better pie.

Jucce? Come on, Thom, let's not get too familiar.


6----------

Ok, here she is........

Liu, an M.I.T. graduate and former McKinsey consultant, argues that Chinese today are yearning to create a new national identity, one that merges traditional Chinese values, like balance, respect and flow, with its modern urban reality. She believes that the creation of a sustainable “Chinese Dream” that breaks the historic link between income growth and rising resource consumption could be a part of that new identity, one that could resonate around the world.

You go, girl!! ......

 Chinese are more open to this than ever. A decade ago, the prevailing attitude was, “Hey, you Americans got to grow dirty for 150 years. Now it is our turn.” A couple of weeks ago, though, I took part in the opening day of Tongji University’s Urban Planning and Design Institute in Shanghai and asked students whether they still felt that way. I got a very different answer. Zhou Lin, a graduate student studying energy systems, stood up and declared, with classmates nodding, “You can politicize this issue as much as you want, but, in the end, it doesn’t do us any good.” It is not about fairness anymore, he said. It is in China’s best interest to find a “cleaner” growth path.

6:30-------

And, now, I have a call into Jack Alpert, of SKIL, about Thom's column.

And, finally, from Thom's column, we have this......

So Xi Jinping has two very different challenges from his predecessor. He needs to ensure that the Communist Party continues to rule — despite awakened citizen pressure for reform — and that requires more high growth to keep the population satisfied with party control. But he also needs to manage all the downsides of that growth — from widening income gaps to massive rural-urban migration to choking pollution and environmental destruction. The only way to square all that is with a new Chinese Dream that marries people’s expectations of prosperity with a more sustainable China. Does Xi know that, and, if he does, can he move the system fast enough? So much is riding on the answers to those questions.

Yes, indeed, more than most of us can imagine.





(cont.)

Yes, China's eager middle class is quite the problem. Here's one of their solutions, perhaps?... Ordos, Inner Mongolia A brand new modern city, built to house a million people. Remains a ghost-town with only a few civil servants waiting for all the people to show up. Although it was christened with the Miss World Crowning, so the stadium got it's debut. The Prince and Duchess were given a tour of the ghost-town, too. Look at all the beautiful empty places, Sweetie.

BTW, I hear Xi stood-up the Hill?, or was it competing itineraries. That wasn't very gentlemanly. Or maybe she got the secret hideaway tour.

I am concerned about 200 million Chinese men with not enough women to marry, having nothing to do but march across the Euphrates.

UFO meeting? That is a surprise. Returning to 04/07 are we? And here I am just getting ready to launch a campaign. I think I'm game. We'll chat tomorrow. Have a friend's birthday social this evening.

Cheers

Very good, Jake. But I don't think I have a current phone #.

I did talk to CK, who will talk to PK. There may be a schedule conflict concerning NRA. I mean..... really....! Let's get serious, sports fans.


7:35---------

Gordon N. passed away at 3am this morning. RIP, my friend.....

We will miss you. The mold has been broken......

Dad would not have wanted to been lying in the hospital much longer than what he was, so his time has come to pass. 

Thank you all for being his close friends.

8:30----------

O's are down by 3. The debate is coming up........ Where is Chuck, when we need him?



(cont.)

Recent developments on the Iranian home front:

Iran's Currency Lost 40 Percent of Its Value Last Week

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2012/10/irans-currency-lost-40-percent-its-value-last-week/57488/

I'm glad to see that Dan/Jake may have decided to coalesce. I do await the video production.

Perhaps the two of you could take a moment to explain the reasoning behind the Orthodox Christianity based Russians not aligning with like minds spiritually and instead have seemed to deal under the deck to the Syrians/Iranians. I understand the 'enemy of' concept of war, but cannot factor in the spiritual significance of such decisions.

Care to illustrate?

Thanks Dan. I'm not sure of which NRA you refer.

Well it was a pleasant birthday social. Just checking in for a peek before nighty-nights.

Mdonnall, oh my, so many ways to answer. Which one is best?, too tired to choose. How about this....

The Russians are Caucasians, genetic kin of the British, Europeans and the Americans. Is blood thicker than water? Eschatology contains mixed messages. The "Gog/Magogs" concept is confusing to most. A looming Syrian quagmire in a prophetic view, imo, is Isaiah 17. Whether it be myth or not, it's implications remain peculiarly apropos to these times. And the Russia politico, imo, is the first to warn (their kin) of potentialities. Isn't that what loving brothers should do?

"Spiritual significance" you pose?
Cain and Able. And oh how their parents despair in the folly. The question is, which one is which?

G-d will send a strong delusion, so the prophecies declare. Does this suggest both will be deceived? Seems reasonably conceivable. Prophecy declares that if possible, even the elect would be deceived. How could this be?

And the world turns


bedtime, g'night, tomorrow is another bright new day

MD02,

Yes, what is with the Russians? They are, after all, the nearest thing to a Christian country in Europe? They do feel threatened, nonetheless, by globalization, which idea once had it's roots in the Christian west. There is an isolationist, even paranoid, strain amongst the Russians, and it does adhere to their national orthodox church, which seems rather more conservative even than the Vatican.

Throughout the Arab spring, there are sectarian tensions between the Sunni and Shia Muslims.

I'm guessing, though, that the Russians fear sectarian unrest in their former Soviet satellites, to the south, and so they are simply trying to support the status quo in Syria, which, I believe, borders on some of those states...... sorry, no, that would be Iran that impinges directly upon that region.

The Catholic church hierarchy has always found it easy to make accommodations with the PtB, in the countries where it has a base. Protestantism, generally, has been more subversive wrt existing power structures. This may even have been reflected in the T-party movement, to some degree.

Certainly, the BPWH looks forward to the Kingdom Come, and some would see that as simply a New World Order, of a Bilderberger variety, say, but the Bible has virtually nothing to say about the actual governance of the Kingdom. I am aware that the Baha'i faith does advocate a hierarchy of councils of twelve, I believe it is. I certainly don't see capitalism as the dominant mode of economic activity, if economic activity there be.

What I have discussed, with respect to the Kingdom, are the twelve regions into which the globe might be divided, each with its own megalopolis. Would these reflect the biblical twelve tribes of Israel? That is possible. Of course, the initial ethnic makeup of these regions would would deserve due consideration. God help us, if we have to go though another Partitioning, as happened with post-colonial India/Pakistan.

It would seem best, initially, to simply accommodate existing patterns, as much as possible, and then to work out patterns of continuing migration. Would there need to be border security? In a world of continuing fertility decline, security considerations should be minimal.


Beyond a vague outline, like the one above, I think we should not try to preempt the spontaneity that will necessarily arise out of the MoA(PS/GS) itself. That would be putting the cart before the horse.


1pm-------------

Now, allow me, please, to take up where Jake left off with his speculations concerning ET civilizations........

It is especially notable that he did accept the Rare Earth Hypothesis, wherein it is only the rare solar system that would accommodate sapient beings such as ourselves. But I don't see how this would make sense from the perspective of any would be Creator.

If the basic plan of Creation is to have one that is abundant with life, then I would think that the design principle would be to have as many Earth-like planets as possible. Perhaps, though, the design principle is to provide for a plethora of uninhabited planets, so that the inhabited ones would have ample opportunity for growth and expansion. This would provide for additional thousands of years for galactic civilizations to thrive.

But even under these ideal conditions, we would reach our limits to galactic growth, within a foreseeable future. Of course, cosmologists and science fiction writers speculate about there being an infinity of Big Bang universes, to which we might migrate, through space-time 'wormholes', thus extending any physical limits to growth, indefinitely!

Is this the sort of Creation that we would prefer, if we had our choice? Certainly, most of us would choose this option, over an Eschaton, even one that might be postponed for a few centuries.


But let's not be overly impatient about making this choice........

I see the Eschaton as being something like a wormhole, as folks claim to experience in near-death situations. Certainly, God could arrange for this to be the case. The choice then would be more like whether we continue with a more or less linear time progression, within other galaxies or universes, or whether we opt for something beyond space and time, more like what some folks suppose that Heaven might be.

Again, it seems likely that most of us would stick with what seems to be the less radical choice, and continue with seems most familiar and comfortable. We would choose going to another galaxy or universe, rather than to something totally beyond our reckoning.

There is the further implication that we could choose to extend our individual lifetimes, indefinitely. On this view, God would simply be allowing us to build our own, New Jerusalems, in the Sky, or even right here, on Earth. Would this not be the Best Possible World? The Bible even seems to hint about such a possibility.

For instance, why couldn't we just have God's Kingdom on Earth, and then skip the final Judgment, with God providing 'Sunday' school for all the non-Christians, say? Utopia, at last! Where is the catch in this?

This is just what most of suppose heaven to be, were it to be possible.



(cont.)

Jake,

Here, I think is what I was striving for, yesterday........

It is possible that Creation is infinite and eternal. But, after several centuries of technological/material progress, we have now reached a jumping-off point.......

To progress further, in any sort of linear fashion, we will have to jump into space, but such a jump would be problematic on two main counts.......

1.) Technical feasibility......

2.) Who may already be out there......

Feasibility.....? It would require enormous/prohibitive amounts of energy to get just a handful of astronauts to the nearest star. Otherwise, we would need to gain access to a Stargate.

Who or What is out there........? If stargates are feasible, then, almost certainly, they have already been invented, somewhere else...... in the Galaxy, in the Universe and/or in the infinite Multiverse. We would be the Johnny-come-latelies, the new kids on the Block!

Virtually everyone, besides a handful of hardcore/professional materialists, believes that we do, by one means or another, have access to a Stargate. How so? Well, let us count the ways............

1.) Most everyone in the world believes that we are being visited by beings from other worlds or other dimensions.

2.) Most everyone in the world believes that we already have personal access to other worlds either by paranormal means and/or via our immortal souls.

Are these folks delusional? Well, like I say, only a handful of hardcore/professional atheist/matialists will say so in public, and those same ones will also tell you that you are actually an unconscious zombie, a meat-machine, without a freewill. If you don't believe me, then you have not being paying attention to the public debates concerning the mind-body problem.


Where does this leave us wrt our jumping-off point.......?

Very simply, Jake, it leaves us on the edge of Eternity.

So what? So everything............

Sure, anytime we want, we can jump off into space, and beyond, simply by exploiting one or more of the various sorts of stargates. Anytime? Sure, anytime we're ready!

The only caveat is wrt 'we'........

Hey, if you want a private, first-class trip to Eternity, be my guest. Otherwise, we'll be taking this trip, more or less, together......

That is certainly the conclusion of the prophetic tradition, to which most believers adhere.

But why can't we just make a Stargate from point A to point B, and skip Eternity? Well, there are two reasons.........

1.) Technical....... Once you have assembled the 'technology' at point A, point B becomes rather arbitrary, excepting that it might be a lot easier if there is already a Stargate that we can plug into at point B. Also, please note, that stargate technology would be virtually synonymous with time-machine technology.

2.) #1 implies that there should exist a Grand Central Station (GCS) wrt stargate and time-machine travel. Let's consider this for minute.......

My main point is very simple...... what could any such GCS be, other than a anteroom/mudroom of Eternity? Yes, folks, this 'mudroom' would be the Restaurant at the End of the Universe, or the Spacebar in Starwars. It would almost surely have a purgatorial atmosphere about it!

But, and this may be my about my biggest 'but' ever, my mother of all buts (MoABs), consider the possibility that Earth is just this GCS...... the cosmic mudroom, if you will.

Hey, don't we already know this, deep down........? Either we are just the Third Rock from the Sun, or...... We are some sort of Cosmic Mudroom!

If that's what this is, the Cosmic Comedy Club (CCC), then we might want to know who the Bouncer is. This is a question that came up for me, on my evening out on the town, after performing my own little comedy act @Jack's place (lensman137), and after realizing that all my cash and Id's had been 'misplaced'. In fact, I still have his 'calling card', although I didn't get a real good look at his face, and then my navigational beacon was taxing my altered state, for the rest of the night. So much for cosmic comedy.

So who is the bouncer? I think, if we were to take a vote, the J-man would win, at least by a sizable plurality, and definitely by a kick-ass majority, if we did a 1-2-3 ballot. So what? Why wax ad-hominem about a Mudroom?

Well, why wax ad-hominem about any host or hostess? Has there ever been a party without one? I think not. It goes with the territory.

So, yes, either we're the third rock, or we're the CMR, and we have a pretty good idea who is our host(ess) with the mostest. In any case, Jake, I think you'll agree that we have come to an historic cross-roads, if not in fact to the cosmic Cross-roads.

What, then, are we missing, at this Party juncture.....?

All we need, now, is a DJ. No? And, Jake, do I have your permission to be the acting DJ, at least until the real one shows up?

I claim to be getting my marching orders from John 16:12ff. Is that ok? Should I have applied elsewhere?

And then, yes, there is, maybe, some sort of MJ12-like group. No? That is one reason why I try to stay on speaking terms with CK, besides just being his chicken-little BBQ-buddy.

And, finally, I may, possibly, have a handle on a CohTT, or an MoA(PS/GS).

So, yes, whoever is supposed to be the real DJ, for the real Mudroom, will want to get her act together, ASAP, because the glory train may soon be leaving the GCS. Yes, this does remind me of the old riddle........ Why are there no little Santa Fe Expresses? Because the Chief always pulls out on time!


12:20---------

And, already, my dance card is beginning to fill up...... tomorrow we may have an apologetics and a princess...... or something..... if I don't jump a jet to London town. Yes, things may get a bit hectic, as we head toward D-day....... 12^3...... if we are superstitious...... well, don't tell me I didn't warn you....! Hey, if you are a foot-soldier, like chicken-little, you only ever have one marching order..... hurry up and wait!


But, just yesterday, it was sounding like my chariot was not on fire, and that we would be building Jerusalem, down here. Well, now, sports fans, let's make sure we're all on the same page......

I'm thinking that we're not supposed to confuse the KC with the NewJu. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but they may be two different things, eschatologically speaking. KC is our launching pad, and NuJu is our Mother ship. That's about the most coherence that I'm able to wring out of the NewT....... reader satisfaction may vary......

NuJu takes us to the Hieros Gamos, the Apokatastasis. No? Tell me I'm wrong. That is the Santa Fe Express. In my early summers, I used to try to flag it down, in Mount Pleasant. I had no more luck than Eddie Fisher. 12^3? No, that's D-day. The SFX departs in about 200 years, hence, but there will be no need for any of us to wait around 'till then. Our rendezvous will be rather sooner, I suspect, and just speaking for my little lonesome....... but D-day, that is a different kettle of fish, and, in many respects, the timing is much more...... fraught.

Look, sports fans, if we can make it through D-day, ok, then our SFX trip will be a walk in the park! That's why so many folks are feeling a bit nervous, in these latter days. Wouldn't you?


2---------

Are there any other big questions hanging over us, at this point, besides who, what, where and when? Will it be the butler in the library with the candle stick? Knock 'em dead.... break a leg!

How soon should any of the A&D videos be posted? ASAP? What are we waiting for? Upon whose ceremony are we standing?

Might these videos be the last straw? They could be, if properly handled, but that is a major caveat. Virtually anything could be the last straw, if properly handled. Who is the final handler, the final disposer? Is it MJ12, or is it the the big gal, upstairs? I suspect that each one holds a key, but there is always an override switch. There are the built-in holds. And then there is 14 3 0 11.

And how about those new labor stats? Will that give the POTUS, a much needed lift, after his lackluster show on Wed? When we're in the middle of the stream, that is not a good time to switch horses. Barry may be lackluster, but that other guy, well, he doesn't exactly stick to his guns, either. And those Mormons were not real big on the Trinity, when I last checked.



(cont.)

Someone is on a roll this morning.

What is the purpose of sitting on video productions - with what appears to be little time left? Rush to press before you Humpty Dumpty yourself, I say. Do we need to keep you within a two drink limit ole muse?

You should grown weary with the amount of hurry up and wait. Why must the Gov. always be so inefficient!?

Md02,

Sitting on a video, are we? Well, you should have been there in SF, with Jack. Every time someone said boo to him, he would try to pull the plug on lensman137. But, in that case, the piper called the tune. It was a tempest in a microcosmic teapot. With each new video, the teapot gets bigger. So, no, I'm no longer the sitter. I just smile, and try to act natural. Is it above my pay grade? Well, it ain't chicken feed, now is it?

Gummin't inefficient.......? Who, me worry? I've only ever been good enuf for gummin't work.

And, when it comes down to the launch codes, and the red phone in the football, then, yes, we all might want to pray for one last, deep breath. No?


4:40----------

And then there is this....... http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/05/catholic-revolution-nazi-dictatorship-pope?INTCMP=SRCH




(cont.)

dan wrote:Md02,

Sitting on a video, are we? Well, you should have been there in SF, with Jack. Every time someone said boo to him, he would try to pull the plug on lensman137. But, in that case, the piper called the tune. It was a tempest in a microcosmic teapot. With each new video, the teapot gets bigger. So, no, I'm no longer the sitter. I just smile, and try to act natural. Is it above my pay grade? Well, it ain't chicken feed, now is it?

Gummin't inefficient.......? Who, me worry? I've only ever been good enuf for gummin't work.

And, when it comes down to the launch codes, and the red phone in the football, then, yes, we all might want to pray for one last, deep breath. No?


4:40----------

And then there is this....... http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/05/catholic-revolution-nazi-dictatorship-pope?INTCMP=SRCH




(cont.)

a simple reiteration...the ptb are not allowed to use wmd's on the population. It will trigger intervention.

translation: advancement (your return to the source) through suicide/planetcide is not allowed nor acceptable.

Lyndon LaRouche is in a panic trying to reason with the population & ptb at the moment trying to prevent a global suicide attempt.

The peoples of this world have been asked repeatedly through multiple venues to cease killing each other. It never occurs to the ptb bone-heads that there might be good reason for doing so? But whatever - return yourselves to microbe status and start over in the revolution of lifetimes. I've got bets with someone how many times terrans will have to restart before they realize their potential and clean the murderous behaviour out of their nature. One can only look at this world and assume the inhabitants enjoy traveling backwards in evolution far better than forwards. Isn't it fascinating? I've never seen anything in the universe like it!

Cy

Before anyone knows whats going to happen , the entire planet may end up like an Orwellian nightmare , the clues are to be found all u have to do is join the dots. Its as easy to find out whats going on , like it is to say 1 , 2 ,3 or maybe I find its easy.

Animal

Well, the more things change, the more they stay the same..... The constant in all of this is that CK has got to keep his finger in the pie and his thumb on the scale. And keep us all guessing, especially yours, truly.

The bottom line is still the ufo meeting and 12^3...... After yesterday, my expectations are lower, but not entirely vanished. In talking about the meeting, I said I would need an entourage, in order for there to be even the slightest impact. Well, I may get more than I had bargained for, especially in the sense that I am liable to be upstaged by this putative entourage......... a missing ring, a goat, two princesses, two ghosts, and a Muslim electronics salesman.

The evening before, I had gone to the Defending the Faith Conference at Mt. Airy Bible Church, along with Bill and Jeff from GFC/SfA, where I picked up two books....... Answering Islam, by Geisler and Global Warming by a Dr. Curtis.

But now I'm going to have to get ready for church....... and speaking of Ghosts, how about that Lyndon LaRouche, 90, and still running the world!




(cont.)

I'll call you after church.

LaRouche? My, what a small world. I've been keeping tabs of late. He's not too fond of the Obama puppet show.

I hadn't got around to this yet, will watch today;

An Alternative to Hyperinflation And Thermonuclear War •
From Helga, Economic Collapse, Stop WWIII, Webcast 2012.09.22: (73 minutes)

Helga Zepp-LaRouche

Jake,

Yes, please do call. There is some catching up to do.......

I am watching the Ravens at KC. Then at 6, it's the O's v the Yanks. T has a box seat with Maggie, Mark and Charlie.

And, now, here is from a Catholic friend of mine, in reference to an earlier link.....

The most evident problem is often called "lavender mafia", ie an organized homosexual infiltration into the hierarchy.  There are other "infiltrations", certainly, which undermine the long stated intent of the Church, most of which fall into the natural order, which I see as the norm for the most part rather healthy.  The unnatural and anti-supernatural Lavender Mafia, however, is the ugly manifestation of all the other problems, it being an attack against both God and man.

4:50----------

I'm having a lengthy and long overdue phone convo with Jake, concerning eschatology........

When we temporarily signed off, I said my next question would be about the salvation of ET's.


Jake and I agree on about every aspect of human related eschatology. It is about the ETH, that we differ most directly.

We also need to talk about the evidence for the soul. This has been the main topic at SfA, for the past several sessions, in our discussion of NDE's.


9-------

Aliyah's father passed away at 5:30 this afternoon.




(cont.)

dan wrote:
I'm having a lengthy and long overdue phone convo with Jake, concerning eschatology........

When we temporarily signed off, I said my next question would be about the salvation of ET's.


Jake and I agree on about every aspect of human related eschatology. It is about the ETH, that we differ most directly.

We also need to talk about the evidence for the soul. This has been the main topic at SfA, for the past several sessions, in our discussion of NDE's.

And what about such ET salvation? This topic would be speculative at best unless one could know the historical/factual timelines of their 'becoming'.

Still, it is a good subject.

Do we look at them as ET, UT, or of the Watcher/Nephilim types? If I am correct, Dan, you are in the UT camp. Jake, ET/Heavenly host?

I know you two can cover more material throughout a phone conversation, but do flesh out some thoughts on this here in obscurity.

Md02,

Jake believes that there are both ET's and UT's, while I believe only in the latter. We did not have the opportunity to get into the problem of ET salvation, in any depth, but Jake does recognize that it is a problematic issue for a Christian. If he allows himself to think about it at any length, then I think he will find that the model of the Earth being a cosmic grand central station (CGCS) is the only model that is likely to make any sense. And this is at least half-way to the notion of an anthropocentric/geocentric cosmos, which is the key factor of the BPWH.


And here is something that I learned from the book on Islam that I got at the apologetics conference on Friday........ Islam does not have a Millennium! At first, I was surprised, but it was only mentioned in passing, in the Norm Geisler book. Then it occurred to me that perhaps it is the idea of the Millennium that should be surprising. Let's see.........

As far back as Zoroastrianism, there was the idea of the final victory of good over evil. But this was opposed to almost every other cosmology, wherein there is a gradual decline from a pristine initial state of the world, or Golden age, into a final state of corruption and death.

In the history of Judaism, I don't know when or how the idea of a Messiah took hold. This became the central theme of Xianity, but Islam quickly dropped it. In many ways, Mohammed fit the mold of the expected political messiah, much more than did Jesus. There was a strange reversal here. The messianic kingdoms were virtually realized in the Caliphates and in the Holy Roman Empire. The Catholic church is officially a-millennial, seeing the Second Coming as coinciding with Judgment Day. And this is true also for the non-evangelical Protestants. Amillenniaism may largely be a political bias, since Millennial enthusiasm has often been used in support of revolutions.


Something I learned from Bill, on Sunday, and confirmed later, in the conversation with Jake, is that the young Earth hypothesis is still a live issue within many evangelical congregations. I had previously gotten the impression from GFC/SfA, affiliated with RtB, that the YEH had nearly become moribund. The YEH is, quite understandably, considered a major stumbling block for modern apologetics.

It is very hard, especially for literal minded Christians to suppose that the Creator might have deliberately deceived scientists about the true age of the Earth. Thus do many of the Young Earthers suppose that there is a scientific conspiracy to deceive the believers, similar to what they suppose is a scientific conspiracy behind the climate-change debate.

We can see that the BPWH would, for yet another reason, find itself in very hot water.

Needless to say, Jake is also rather put-off by the very idea of a deceptive Creator, as we discussed it, last evening. This is definitely an uphill battle for the BPWH.......

What I'm trying to say is that, with the BPWH, we can have our cake, and eat it, too. We can have the best of both the material and spiritual worldviews. How can the world be materially old and spiritually young, at the same time? Isn't this just another form of dualism?


I should also say that, in the SfA seminar, yesterday, Bill wrapped up a three-week discussion of NDE's. He suggests that NDE's should be featured within any apologetic defense of Xianity, as being proof-positive of a human soul. I advised some caution in that regard.

Bill is rather innocent of how the notion of a paradigm shift might apply to the 'discovery' of the soul. As, for instance, how the 'discovery' of the soul might relate to the prospect of a 'pan-psychic catastrophe' within science, generally.

Generally speaking, all of us paranormalists are thinking in terms of baby-steps, Ellie! Not realizing that we are going up against the specter of the 800# gorilla, in the wings. This is just the MoA(PS/GS).

We are each looking at our own little piece of the Elephant, Gorilla or what have you. We are forgetting how defensive and vulnerable is the, about to be obsoleted, paradigm of scientific materialism and its small contingent ardent defenders. Everything is at stake..... everything is up for grabs! I'm hardly the only one who senses that the fate of the world hangs in this balance.

Where is the Apology in the apocalypse of the BPWH?! It's more like..... slam, bam, thank you, ma'am!


2:45----------

The only question before us is what will be the straw that will break the Camel's back? Do I look like a piece of straw? Do I look like a thief in the night?

If you were God, how would you handle the MoA(PS/GS)...... if not within the prophetic tradition? Walk softly, and carry a big stick? Where's the big stick, pray tell? Does CK look like a big stick, or is he just a trickster/prankster, who used to dress up as a vampire? The cover is pretty good, rather too good, one might think.


I missed this Correction, from yesterday.......

From: xxx
Date: October 7, 2012 6:56:04 PM EDT
To: Dan Smith 

Subject: error correction in initial post

Dan

I read the copy of my post that is on your blog.  And I noticed that I used a word that was a poor choice.

"There are other "infiltrations", certainly, which undermine the long stated intent of the Church,"

"undermine" does not serve my meaning but undermines it  : )

I should have written, "challenge".

Upon further reflection, my view is that there are challenges to the Church proper, ie the faithful and the doctrines, and that some challenges work to undermine or betray the Church, while other challenges are natural among men and are part of humanity's learning process, as in what one might say is humanity walking up the path to Heaven.

Money:  Man has to use money to help produce and distribute goods and services.  Money is good but it is the worship of money that is bad.

Communism has been declared by popes to be an idea and practice that is hostile to the Church.

When one reads through especially the Old Testament, one notices many symbols used by prophets.  I take these symbols to indicate aspects of human nature but some of them represent powers, principalities etc (someday I hope to memorize this list found in St Paul) that are not material things but are creations which influence or rule over some other aspects of creation.

On my religious influences of early life:  Lutheranism and Calvinism.  It took me a long time once in Catholicism to recognize and shake free from these two shackles.

I appreciate John's defense of the institution of the Church. As I said to Jake, here I am, as a Monday morning pope/messiah, looking to establish the kingdom-come. I'd best be careful about throwing stones! Am I going to try to reinvent the Pope-mobile?

I would, of course, say that the Catholic church was the best possible catholic church, given its very difficult circumstances. It will even be a hard act to follow, much harder than its many critics would like to think. And, hey, most of them have given virtually no thought to any sort of replacement. Nothing could be further from their innocent little minds!


And, maybe, if this were actually the best possible world, we might even want to suppose that the Church could reform, even reinvent, itself from within. Now wouldn't that be a Miracle?! Then chicken-little wouldn't have to reinvent the pope-mobile. What a relief! Necessity is the mother of reinvention.


Who is going to reinvent Islam? The Mahdi? But of course! Unfortunately, the Mahdi will also have to invent an Islamic version of the Millennium. She will be a busy, gal!

And if you think the religionists are going to have problems, what about those poor capitalists? Are they going to have to reinvent communism? Ouch! Ecumenism is coming, with a vengeance! It'll be a brave new world order.


Me? I just get to reinvent science, from the top, down. Yes, it is slow going. God atomizes into souls, and souls atomize into, well...... atoms. Space and time are the fillers. Earth is the more or less level playing field.

Our individual dream-spaces have to accommodate a common registration. The atoms are one result of that registration process. Yes, physics emerges out of the necessity of our coexistence. There are other schemes for this emergent order, such as Penrose's, which start from the bottom, all the way down at the Plank-scale. There may well be some commonalities, despite the inverted perspectives.

Also, of course, there are cycles within cycles, with the Ouroboros being the master circuit, all the way down to the cellular cycles. Atoms, again, are how these cycles get registered. I wonder if, somehow the quantum 'jumps' might be a reflection of the Omega >> Alpha gap/jump in the Ouroboros? It would be if we extend Feynman's sum over quantum/soul histories to the Ouroboros.



(cont.)

Hi Dan and Mdonnall,

Just signed on briefly to let you know it is Thanksgiving Day here in Canada.

I'll reply to your comments tomorrow

Jake,

That's ok, I guess, as long as you folks, up there, leave a few turkeys for the rest of us!

And where did we leave off....... wasn't it about God as the Great Deceiver? Maybe you thought that only Satan could be deceptive, as most sane people believe. Ok, but then tell me this, Jake, suppose that God, for whatever reason, wanted to create a small, anthropocentric world. If you were that God, how would you design that small world? Would it look like a terrarium...... I mean if you didn't want to be deceptive, or anything?

And what about the concept of God being a playwright or choreographer, and that all the world might be a stage? If that were the case, what would you suggest that God use for scenery?

Also, let us consider what it means to be deceptive, rather than, say, exercising artistic license.....

'Deceptive' means to mislead others so as to benefit from their confusion. If the world turned out to be a virtual reality, more mind-like than rock-like, more being spirit filled than merely being empty space, would we have a reason, then, to complain about God's 'deception'?

You do understand that, in the prophetic tradition, we are dealing with a Self-revealing God. But how can God be Self-revealing, without also being Self-concealing? Is that being deceptive?

With Jake, it is important to understand that size matters. Surely, he is wont to suppose, a Big god would create a Big universe, along with a Big Bang, no doubt!! Only a little god would create a little world, along with a little bang....... What a Wimp, thinks Jake! I'll bet Jake thinks he could whup the as* of such a wimpy god.

Allow me, please, to suggest that the apparent awesome size of the universe is just a metaphor for the awesome power and love of God! Is such a thought totally beyond our ken?

Now we look as through a glass, darkly...... but then......... Now we are awed by the vastness of empty space, but then we shall be filled with God's infinite spirit.

Cosmologists have been mislead into misplacing the infinity God into the infinity of Space. Yes, this is idolatry on steroids, but it is also a very significant, and not such a baby-step, Ellie. Are we actually lost in space, or is God just playing hard to get?

The night sky, brimming over with stars, is just our God-shield. Do we truly suppose that it cannot be torn asunder? How else could there be a Rapture? How else do the UT Visitors arrive? To them, the universe is nothing more than Swiss cheese.

God wants us creatures to be able to stand on our own two feet...... to learn how to walk, before we fly...... Now, with D-day, we begin our flying lessons!

Getting to the Moon was an excellent warm-up exercise, a walk in the park, a big step toward the Rapture, a terrific lesson in large-scale, precision cooperation. We will need every bit of that experience in rising to the challenge that is just around the corner.

But getting to Heaven will not even be half the fun! Atonement/atunement is what it's really about. That's why we had to learn to walk on our own two feet, before we could learn to fly. To put this in the words of Owen Barfield, we cannot go directly from alpha-thinking to the final Participation, without learning ego-thinking, in between. This ego-thinking has been a very painful, very alienating experience, and the darkest hour is just before the Dawn.

Keep in mind that we are God's bootstraps, and that God is our Cheerleader, our #1 Fan, with pom-poms and all! How's the Show been, so far? Can you believe me when I tell you that you ain't seen nuttin', yet?!


11--------

Gary sends us the following link............ http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/10/07/proof-of-heaven-a-doctor-s-experience-with-the-afterlife.html
apropos of what we've been discussing at GFC/SfA, for the past three weeks.....

I don’t expect this to be an easy task, for the reasons I described above. When the castle of an old scientific theory begins to show fault lines, no one wants to pay attention at first. The old castle simply took too much work to build in the first place, and if it falls, an entirely new one will have to be constructed in its place.

I learned this firsthand after I was well enough to get back out into the world and talk to others—people, that is, other than my long-suffering wife, Holley, and our two sons—about what had happened to me. The looks of polite disbelief, especially among my medical friends, soon made me realize what a task I would have getting people to understand the enormity of what I had seen and experienced that week while my brain was down.

Sound familiar.....?


Noon------------

I wonder what Jake thinks of these NDE's? Does he truly believe that we need to take more training flights in rocket ships and flying saucers, before we are ready for the great beyond? Why should we need more than a couple of centuries after D-day, in order for us to wrap up our business down here, and then become intellectually and spiritually prepared to do what thousands of folks already do, every day, which is to have our hearts and minds venture out, into the great beyond? Doing it then, not just as individuals, but as a Megalopolis/New Jerusalem. Are we not ready to begin these preparations?

Perhaps Jake is thinking that if there are any unsaved ET's out there, then it is our responsibility to stay in these 3-dimensions, until we have evangelized every last one of them. Hey, that could take a long time...... many millennia, unless, of course, Creation is infinitely large, and then it would take us infinitely long to save the rest of Creation. Unless...... God had arranged for there to be infinitely many saviors, each one sacrificing himself for each and every one of those infinitely many planets. This might make sense to Jews and Muslims, but it should make precious little sense to Christians.



(cont.)

mdonnall2002 wrote:
And what about such ET salvation? This topic would be speculative at best unless one could know the historical/factual timelines of their 'becoming'.

Still, it is a good subject.

Do we look at them as ET, UT, or of the Watcher/Nephilim types? If I am correct, Dan, you are in the UT camp. Jake, ET/Heavenly host?

The biblical description of a person who is resurrected at the time of the Second coming, is neither that of a mortal human being, nor a heavenly host. (having a body yet being incorruptible, while existing in our current space-time continuum, subject to earthly gravity etc.) If we suppose these prophecies are true, and provide an accurate pictorial, then it presumes there exists stages of development.

Projecting forward with this concept, it would be reasonable to presume that there are ETs who possess UT attributes, while at the same time there are UTs that possess ET attributes. (relatively to our current form of existence) Our resurrected bodies would be somewhat similar to one of these forms.

In UFO lore, these forms might describe what are called by contactees and encounters of the fifth kind as: Tall Blondes, Nordics or Pleiadians.

Which begs the questions;
1. Are any of the contactee and encounter's accounts true?
2. Are the biblical prophecies of resurrected beings true?

I am persuaded we can not dismiss either.

----------------------------

And in answer to the "ET salvation" query? I am of the view, that some ET/UT Visitors are already "saved".

While some are here to "boot-strap" to our salvation, as Dan often says. (Grand central station)

dan wrote:Md02,

Jake believes that there are both ET's and UT's, while I believe only in the latter. We did not have the opportunity to get into the problem of ET salvation, in any depth, but Jake does recognize that it is a problematic issue for a Christian.

Actually we spent about an hour on this issue. After which you said you agreed on all accounts. To which I was most surprised. But then I guess it was just a burp. As I see you've returned back to as-you-were.

If he allows himself to think about it at any length, then I think he will find that the model of the Earth being a cosmic grand central station (CGCS) is the only model that is likely to make any sense.

This can only make sense to someone who thinks distant Galaxies are figments of our imagination.

And this is at least half-way to the notion of an anthropocentric/geocentric cosmos, which is the key factor of the BPWH.

Creation is perceived to be anthropocentric/geocentric to every world. "I am the center of the my universe".

However when we remain honest with ourselves and creation, we shed our childish self centeredness.

Something I learned from Bill, on Sunday, and confirmed later, in the conversation with Jake, is that the young Earth hypothesis is still a live issue within many evangelical congregations. ..... The YEH is, quite understandably, considered a major stumbling block for modern apologetics.

Yes, the discovery of "the earth revolves around the sun" was a stumbling block for hundreds of years.

And it even cost countless people the suffering of; burning at the stake, off with the heads, or drawn and quartered.

And there will always be people like you Dan who find it difficult to allow themselves to learn from history.

The "Ken Ham's of this world, inadvertently serve to keep shut the gates of heaven. By confusing his outreach audiences into thinking Evangelical Christianity is stupid.

It is very hard, especially for literal minded Christians to suppose that the Creator might have deliberately deceived scientists about the true age of the Earth. Thus do many of the Young Earthers suppose that there is a scientific conspiracy to deceive the believers,
>>>
Needless to say, Jake is also rather put-off by the very idea of a deceptive Creator, as we discussed it, last evening. This is definitely an uphill battle for the BPWH.......

When deception is employed in any large creative developmental project, it can never ultimately succeed. As the complexity requirements to successfully manifest it "from concept to reality", inherently require consistent application and adherence to universal law.

G-d does not play dice with the Universe.

Jake,

Every once in a while, I do mention ET's without using the contextually implied caveat of 'so-called'! What I recall was that you and I spent most of our 90' conversation on the all-important matters of Earth-based Eschatology, on which you and I, to the best of my recollection, have no significant disagreements.

Only near the end of our conversation, did I bring up the 'problem' of ET salvation, and perhaps I assumed that you were to understand this as your problem, and not as my problem. You said that it was a very complicated topic, and that we should discuss it at another time. So, yes, my bad, if I did not sufficiently stress that I was referring to YOUR ET problem, NOT mine!


But, now, in the above post, you bring up a very important point about the YEH vs the OEH. And this is another one of the many issues wrt the BPWH, where I have a tendency to slide over important points, points which may seem obvious to me, but which, clearly, are not obvious to others........

At the outset, trust me when I say that I sincerely believe that this is the BEST POSSIBLE WORLD!! And that every action within it is the best possible action! Saying this, does make me a heretic, in the eyes of most of my fellow Christians!

And please note that in the above Newsweek cover-story about one particular NDE, the following is reported........

Without using any words, she spoke to me. The message went through me like a wind, and I instantly understood that it was true. I knew so in the same way that I knew that the world around us was real—was not some fantasy, passing and insubstantial.

The message had three parts, and if I had to translate them into earthly language, I’d say they ran something like this:

“You are loved and cherished, dearly, forever.”

“You have nothing to fear.”

“There is nothing you can do wrong.”

Now, for any bible-believing Christian, this is pure and utter heresy, which, not so long ago, would have earned you a one-way trip to the stake. Nowadays, even according to liberal evangelicals, it will earn you a one-way trip to Hell.

Nonetheless, if we are to believe the rest of Dr Eben Alexander's account, he is still a member, in good standing, of a Christian church in Lynchburg, VA, no less. I strongly suspect, however, that it is not the Thomas Road Baptist Church, founded by Jerry Falwell.

I can easily recall my own frustrations on encountering a very bright adherent of the I'm ok, you're ok philosophy, back in the '70s, when I held several back porch discussions, on Park Ave, in Towson.

At GFC, any such adherent is quickly branded as a New Ager, as I have been...... just another deluded Jesus-freak.

What does the BPWH have to say about this.......? I have this to say about that........

Salvation has both its personal and inter-personal aspects. Being born again, is a very personal and transforming experience, just as was EA's NDE experience. BUT...... that is not the be-all and end-all of Salvation....... AND Christians should know this, better than anyone else.

How is it that we Christians manage to forget this double-aspect of Salvation, so easily?

Was it Jesus' fault for not sufficiently stressing this point? I would be the last one to lay this 'blame' at his feet. What was the most basic message that Jesus brought? Was it not the Gospel? And what is the Gospel? Is it not the Good News? Where is the Good News in the likelihood that most of the people that you and I know will, especially according to Jerry Falwell, burn in Hell, for all Eternity? Ok, but did Jerry commit a Sin when he said that? Well, according to the BPWH and according to EA's amanuensis, Jerry can do no wrong.

The primary effect of the Gospel, for the first 300 years after the X-event, was the communalism of the Early Church, an effect that was absolutely unprecedented, in human history. After that, well...... we have somehow managed to survive nearly two millennia of the routinization of that Charism. I find nothing more impressive in history than that, well, with the possible exception of the scientific Revolution. It is to that Revolution that Jake is speaking, in his very reasonable criticism of my version of the YEH, which, to him and to every other scientist, is a throwback to the Dark Ages.

So, yes, it should come as no surprise that any putative MoA(PS/GS) will, at first, be viewed, universally, as an anathema.

Why? Because I am saying that I'm right, and everyone else is wrong! Yes, wrong about the meaning of life. Was Jesus wrong, too? I seriously doubt it. Didn't Jesus believe in eternal damnation? That is certainly what the folks at GFC believe, and they can quote chapter and verse. How can I possibly stand up to that? Very, honestly, I don't know.

But, I did learn, from Jake, in our Sunday conversation, that there is, in the Book of Revelation, a very significant amendment to the Eternal Damnation clause. It is something to the effect that the old earth and old heavens will be replaced. What about the old Hell? I think I'd better find the chapter and verse.

Ok, sports fans, here is what Jake was quoting to me........

Judgment at the Throne of God

      11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Jake and I, amongst evangelicals, are an exclusive club. The only other member I'm presently aware of is Rob Bell. Maybe I'm sufficiently into my cups to ask John C what he thinks about this issue.


3:40---------

Ok, I've consulted with John, and there are, at the least, three passages that would seem to refute Jake, Rob and me......... Luke 16:19ff, John 15:22ff, Romans 1:18ff, and especially these last two, according to John C.

Now, maybe I should check with Bill S about this issue........


5:15----------

Jake and I just got off of a 78' convo about this issue....... eternal damnation......

The definitive passage is, you guessed it....... John 3:16......

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

IOW, the alternative to eternal life is not eternal damnation, but, rather, it is to 'perish'.

What is this word.... perish....?

Perish= After looking at many of the Greek words, I came to the conclusion that meaning in John 3:16, has to be the Greek word APOLLUMI. This word is used in Matt 5:29-30 and these verses there is some Hyperoble being used. I suppose that the meaning in John 3:16 has to the same meaning. Because in Matt 5:29-30, Jesus says that if our right hand causes us to sin, it needs to be destroyed. So in John 3:16 Jesus I saying that those who do not believe in Jesus will be destroyed and thrown into hell. Same meaning as in Matt 5:29-30, just a different context.

Excuse me, but this is a very disappointing translation. Being destroyed and being thrown into Hell, are two very different interpretations of this verse.

Here is wiki, on the Second Death......

Different views....

The majority of Christians who believe in the immortality of the soul regard the second death to mean eternal suffering or torment in a place called the Lake of Fire, though a minority of Christians who believe in the immortality of the soul teach universal salvation. Mortalists, including some Anglicans, some Lutherans, all Seventh Day Adventists, and others, oppose the idea of eternal suffering but believe that the Second death is an actual second death, meaning that the soul perishes and will be annihilated after the final judgment.

But Jake and I are both Universalists, not unlike Rob Bell, who is roundly castigated by his fellow Evangelicals. But Jake and I may differ, concerning the immortality of the Ego, which is only temporarily attached to the cosmic soul.

But, again, Jake and I agree that...... sorry, I lost the train......

What we may disagree upon is that no ego is eternal. Only God and the Logos are eternal.

Now here is a singular agreement...... Yes, there are Many Mansions, and from those mansions come visitors who are neither good nor evil. This is what the Christians have a very hard time understanding.


6----------

Before I forget, let me attempt, feebly, to recall this part of my convo with Jake.......

This is about the possible distinction between the Logos and Jesus.......

Jake readily agrees that we may be the GCS of our galaxy, but that, in other galaxies, there may be other incarnations of the Logos.

But, wait....... Jake does believe the Bible when it says that Satan and one third of the Angels fell to Earth. So, in an eschatological sense, this does seem to make us the cosmic GCS. Therefore, according to Jake, what might make the cosmos anthropocentric is not Jesus. Rather, it is Satan! How about them apples?


6:40---------

Then there is this, from the NYT.......

The attack occurred in Mingora, the valley’s main town, when masked gunmen stopped a bus carrying schoolgirls who had just taken an exam and sought out the 14-year-old, Malala Yousafzai, shooting her twice.

Ms. Yousafzai, who won a national peace prize last year, was shot in the head and the neck, while two other people on the bus suffered lighter injuries, local health officials said. After emergency treatment, Ms. Yousafzai was taken by helicopter to a military hospital in the provincial capital, Peshawar, where doctors said she was in stable but critical condition late Tuesday.

I'm very sorry, but this is seriously not acceptable human behavior. Will the members of the Taliban suffer eternal damnation? Well, they will perish, if they do not mend their ways. The article continues.......

The Pakistani Taliban claimed responsibility for the attack, saying Ms. Yousafzai had been targeted for her criticism of the Taliban and because it considered her human rights campaigning to be an “obscenity.”

“She has become a symbol of Western culture in the area; she was openly propagating it,” a Taliban spokesman, Ehsanullah Ehsan, said by phone from an undisclosed location. “She considers Obama as her ideal leader.”

The Taliban publicly placed Ms. Yousafzai on its assassination hit list this spring. Mr. Ehsan added that if she survived, the militants would try to kill her again. “Let this be a lesson,” he said.

This is a serious problem for the Muslims.......

The problem is that the Muslims do not have leader who can step up to this plate. Christians do have such a leader. I think that, very soon, the Muslims will recognize that there was a reason for the Crucifixion. It was not a holograph. Well, yes, everything is a holograph, but our suffering is the most real thing, within this vale of tears.


7:20---------

Definitely, you need to look at the 20' video in this article....... http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/10/world/asia/teen-school-activist-malala-yousafzai-survives-hit-by-pakistani-taliban.html?hp


8:40---------

No, it is the 32' video at the top of this NYT article. This very young woman may very well turn the tide against the Taliban. Yes, there is a reason for this terrible situation. It will be resolved, with or without the X2-event.


8:45-----------

Then there is this.......

From: Dan Smith 
Date: October 9, 2012 8:04:26 PM EDT
To: Gary 

Subject: Re: Your interview ...

Excellent question, Gary....... 

It was Ron who told me, almost 17 years ago, that the USG had a phenomenology problem.  This was the first time that I had heard this word in that context.  And I very distinctly remember telling him that he probably would regret having used that particular word.  Feel free to ask him, if he does so regret. 

Why does the USG have a phenomenology problem?  Well, I would suggest that is has to do with the Disturbing Message that was introduced to me by Rick Doty, back in that same time-frame.  Rick refused to divulge this disturbing message.  But, as CK well knows, I have interpreted that message to have an eschatological context.  

I'll be glad to continue this exposition, at your behest....... 



On Oct 9, 2012, at 7:11 PM, Gary wrote:

I think a three-part interview might be the best way to do this ... I will email questions one at a time and put it all together in the editing process.

Answers should be concise and limited to a paragraph or two.

Here's an easy one ;-)

Question: You often mention the U.S. government has a "phenomenology problem." Why? What have you heard from senior U.S. officials?

Thank you! 

On Oct 9, 2012 5:26 PM, "Dan Smith" wrote:

Ok, it looks like it is my turn to step up to the plate....  give me your best shot...... 


On Oct 9, 2012, at 3:34 PM, Gary wrote:

http://www.starpod.us/2012/06/29/stealing-warp-drive-from-the-gods-the-men-who-would-build-prometheus-starpod-us-interviews-jack-sarfatti/

Gary 
On Oct 9, 2012 10:24 AM, "Dan Smith" wrote:
Which interview was that?  


On Oct 9, 2012, at 11:17 AM, Gary  wrote:

Are you up for a print interview like the one I did with Jack?

(cont.)