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Who's Disclosure is Disclosure?

Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:16 am by Cyrellys

The narrative war is in full swing. When there's a 100 different competing narratives, how is it possible to discern a disclosure?

Is it akin to which truth is Truth?




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    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

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    Post by dan Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:35 pm

    First topic message reminder :

    Testing.......

    Yes, it is working.

    Congratulations to Cyrellys & Co.!

    I will be continuing the BPWH blog from Compass Morainn, which was a continuation from the original OMF site on ProBoards, which is in the process of being re-archived from that site.



    (cont.)



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    Post by Jake Reason Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:44 am

    dan wrote:There was a was a small red arrow, pointing to a smaller blue dot, allegedly the Earth, as seen in Voyager's last photo.

    ..... the point was how great was the Lord, and how puny were we. Well, my whole life could have flashed in front of me, exaggerating only a bit. But it was a revelation. Why had I not seen it before? How could I have missed it?

    Well, this is what I mean to talk to Khori about, today. Do you see my angle, the crack in the door, where yesterday there was only a brick wall? Or am I hallucinating, again.......? I wonder if Jake will get the picture?
    I've tried, Dan, but can't quiet nail your point down.

    I gather it has something to do with our soul/spirit/psyche interconnect? Panpsychism with God?

    Crowley? L Ron Hubbard? I know a fair bit about these men but can't piece together what your "eureka" is.

    Please tell

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    Post by dan Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:19 am

    Jake,

    Khori's point was that God is great and we are insignificant, in the scheme of Creation. My point is that he sent his son to tell us how great we are.

    Why is there so much confusion about most important fact?

    I think the point is that God's greatness is a matter of fact, while our greatness must be a matter of faith, and despite all the appearances to the contrary.




    (cont.)

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    Post by Jake Reason Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:24 am

    The Pale Blue Dot
    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 28 Voyager1palebluedot-thumb-450x226-165661

    Thoughts come to mind.....

    If one were to draw a circle around the solar system, with Voyager being the outer edge of the sphere, the Most Important thing to God contained therein, is our minds spirit and souls.

    Voyager is a piece of our collective. Its presence is our presence. As it leaves our solar system, it stakes our claim to this enormous sphere in the Cosmos. Through EMF our minds now permeate the entire solar system.

    The visitors are just that, visitors. We are the only ones who can stake claim here. It's our realm. Fallen Angels are not in charge, we are. And where ever we go, God is with us. And if God be with us, who can be against us.

    ----------

    Edit to add: Ok Dan, got it.
    Yes, sometimes in our attempt to Glorify the Magnitude of God, we inadvertently belittle just who we think we are.



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    Post by dan Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:29 am

    Jake,

    Yes. Our two posts crossed in the ether, but I think we are saying the same thing.

    Is Khori confused? He did not actually say that we are insignificant, but that is the obvious conclusion that most people have drawn from the Voyager photo, and from the rest of Astronomy and Darwinism.

    And he is right to imply that Jesus is our only path to glory. Our job is to help explain that fact.

    It might seem that God is playing with our minds, and, in some respects, he is. Why did he send this Grand Illusion, that has lead to the Great Apostasy amongst our intelligentsia?

    He tears us down, and then builds us up.


    We are about to arrive in New York, so hold on to that thought, please. I may not have much blogging time, in the next few days.


    And I do want to mention that Debi A was the first to come up with the correct answers to the above puzzle, via email. Yes, the same ones as Jake, but adding Marjorie Cameron as the Moonchild.

    .
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    Post by Jake Reason Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:44 pm

    dan wrote:... And guess where I'll be at 12:12 on 12/12/12? Be there or be (times) Square..... and, yes, Greenwich, village/NYU, that is!

    And speaking of the times....... http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/28/world/middleeast/sunni-leaders-gaining-clout-in-mideast.html?hp Yes, there is also the Istanbul-Athens-Rome axis. That makes a T-square, right about at the cave. And A is headed to Rome, I believe. That should pretty much cover the waterfront. What are the Spratlies, when compared with (rose) K?


    dan wrote:
    I also keep saying that this is all about the timing, and I'm going to be in Time's Square, at 12:12 on 12/12/12, but, no, I won't be wearing a placard.

    dan wrote:
    I see the scientific cosmos the way a Protestant sees the Pope....... he makes a better window than a door. When the Time comes, the Pope ought best to have the good grace to step graciously aside. For all I know, that is the intent behind the alleged R&A Audience, on or about 12/12. Would any of the parties be aware of the deeper significance? Only if they had an absolute need to know, on or before 12/12.

    Noon---------

    As I offer to the Pope, I also offer to the Scientific/secular Establishment....... the most gracious possible opportunity to step graciously aside, and remove their plethora of tertiary factoids from the straight path between us and our transcendental destiny. The Time is Ripe. The time is awasting.

    Right now, my friends, the only thing that stands between us and a global financial panic, of biblical proportions, is fracking. Neither the Pope, the PtB nor the Scientific Establishment should sleep peacefully while we are living off the last fractured dregs of the fossil fuels.

    For a full century, we were blessed with free energy. In that century our population quintupled, with no small thanks to the Pope and his pederastic minions. So be it. The Lord permitted it.

    Chicken Little has had enough. I believe that the Lord has had just about enough.

    I don't relish the role of the party-pooper, and neither does the Lord, IMHO.


    dan wrote:
    IMHO, withstanding any and all suggestions to the contrary, there is only one way to explain this Cosmic SNAFU/TACFU......... and seeing as how I am the only human with the independent means and two advanced degrees in physics and minimally adequate PtB connections to be playing the Acclimation/Disclosure game, and also supposing that I have been recruited to this effect, in lieu of any and all Visitors....... Here is my, oh so humble, explanation for this SNAFU/TACFU.......


    12:56 (10') conversation..........

    He had not seen my response to the previous email. He relies upon John S. to forward to him my relevant posts, however......... John, in preparation for his trip with R&A to I, G & K, is, very diligently, trying to preconsume his three week quota of alcohol, seeing as how he will be observing the Muslim protocol for that duration. There will first be a meeting with 'the Bishops', and then, a fortnight later, will be the meeting with PB. He seemed satisfied with my three-paragraph response. He will keep me in the loop, if there are any further questions.


    dan wrote:
    We are about to arrive in New York, so hold on to that thought, please. I may not have much blogging time, in the next few days.

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    Post by Jake Reason Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:20 pm

    Weather conditions today 12/12/12, in New York City @12:12 PM:
    It was 44° F and mostly cloudy.

    Dan, how was your day?

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    Post by dan Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:31 pm

    Jake,

    Thanks for the recap. I look forward to blogging on the train back, tomorrow.......

    The day was good, but no celebration @Times^2. :-(
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    Post by dan Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:46 am

    We are heading back to Baltimore.

    KS sends regrets re meeting tomorrow. Probably for the best. I'm sure we can meet at the appropriate time. SfA is on Sunday, and our BGF planning is on Saturday, so I'll have plenty to work on.

    KS said what he said, plain as day. That should be all that anyone would need to initiate the MoAPS. Will I miss this opportunity? Quite possibly, but it is there, waiting for the right person, asap.

    If I don't now have my foot firmly wedged in the evangelical door, then I must have a screw loose. No one has to agree with that caveat.

    KH merely stated the obvious conclusion to be drawn from the OEH, which is tantamount to the Big Creation Hypothesis, as if size mattered, to God.

    If, indeed, God is personal, then we MUST BE his children, NOT his spawn. There is all the difference in the world.

    The OEH evangelicals sincerely believe that they are doing the right thing, by not making it more difficult for the modern minded to accept the Christian message. It's tough enough for them, already. And, yes, the BPWH/YEH is very difficult to swallow, even for an Xian.

    Now, I have to explain this to the pantheist and atheist environmentalists.


    12:45-----------

    On board........

    Yes, if the BPWH does not seem like an impossibly long-shot, then you are out of touch with the modern mind.

    Nonetheless, it is something that must be taken on spec. We cannot afford leave this stone unturned. No one can...... not the theists, pantheists or atheists. The pantheists and atheists take it as an impolite imposition, that anyone should seemingly attempt to proselytize them. I resent that anyone should resent any attempt at saving the world. Beggars cannot be choosy. Anyone who thinks that environmentalists are not beggars, in these Endtimes, is clueless.

    Yes, the BPWH is a long-shot, until you start connecting the dots and consider the coherence theory of truth (CohTT). Of course, the scientists and fundamentalists are going to feel threatened by any departure from factual truthiness. How can that instinct be assuaged? How can they not feel that something is being put over on them?



    (cont.)



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    Post by Jake Reason Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:01 am

    Hubble in September this year released another 'deep space' picture which contains approx 5,500 Galaxies. They say the light captured is 13.2 billion years old, going back to only 450 million years after the Big Bang.

    Which like always, contradicts astrophysics theory that heavier elements than hydrogen and helium only come from dieing stars after a multi-billion year life cycle.

    This is one reason why I believe the universe is significantly older than 13.6 billion years.

    Dan, when I mentioned during our recent telephone conversation, I felt the universe was much older and larger than science contends. You agreed and said you believed the universe is eternally old. I said you argue vehemently that the Creation is young. You told me I wasn't reading you very well. Adding that you have supported an eternally old Creation a 100 times in the past few months alone. I contested this. And you insisted.

    So here you are again, condescendingly criticizing Christians who believe in an Old Earth Hypothesis (OEH) and a massive universal creation.

    How do you reason this? Why would God create the universe an infinity amount of years ago, and only make the earth in the past 10,000 years?

    Was he dragging His feet? Not sure whether He wanted to go through all the trouble of having children? Thinking about it for an eternity first? While He's tinkering around with billions of galaxies, to keep His mind off the terrible teen years He'd have to deal with?

    Huh

    Jethro says, you'is got sum splannin to do

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    Post by dan Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:57 am

    Jake,

    You make a fair point, but, still, you misunderstand, though it is not your fault. The distinction I make is a tricky one, and my pedagogy is, quite evidently, not up the the task.

    Perhaps we should try to consider this from the perspective of the cosmic soul......

    I am saying that there is only one soul, which has been recirculated, say, 10^10 times. This one soul would then be 70x10^10 years old, in our years. But it also exists in eternity, with and as God, and so it is ageless.

    This same soul is an integral part of Creation, so the some could be said of Creation, keeping in mind, however, that human history, taken altogether, may only be 6,000 years.

    Yes, the Earth appears to be 4 billion years old. Has it actually been around for that long? Time is strictly relative to human consciousness. Science attempts to abstract an absolute time from human time, and its results are coherent, within its own materialistic framework. It can construct a phenomenological timeline, and tell us that, had we been here, 100 million years ago, we would have seen dinosaurs.

    That seems like a rather obvious and innocuous extrapolation, from known facts. But is it coherent from any wider perspective? Extrapolating form scientifically known facts, there is no such thing as consciousness. Does this create a problem for the dinosaurs? Yes and no.....

    I'm happy to postulate an eternal dinosaurland, or Jurassic park, as is referenced on the BPW website, but its phenomenological connection with the Earth may be rather more tenuous than what science tries to project. Every phenomenological claim that science makes about distant time and space, should be taken as strictly metaphorical. If there existed a time machine, I would not recommend that you attempt to travel back further than 6,000 years, lest you fall off the end of the phenomenological Earth, kind of like with the old-time, flat-earth maps. This is what AN Whitehead referred to as science's misplaced concreteness.

    IMHO, this problem is ontologically related to science's very casual reification of the void, of nothingness. If nothingness doesn't actually exist, then science has dug itself into a rather deep phenomenological hole. It has put them out of touch with any sort of 'real' past or real future.

    Yes, the theory of dinosaurs is very important, if you are exploring for oil, but when you start running out of oil, it becomes rather less important. Then we have to consider a a larger context, which may involve eschatology.



    8pm--------

    Without the void, atoms make no sense. Both are equally abstract. Both are emergent properties. But what then do we make of a vacuum tube, or a cathode ray tube? I once built a replica of the Crookes tube, which had led to the discovery of electrons, i.e. cathode rays.

    If we can pump the water out of a vessel, then we ought to be able to pump out the air. And what is left? Nothing! Am I contesting the obvious? Perhaps I'm suggesting there is a difference between a technological vacuum and an ontological vacuum, while scientists tend to confuse the two, and quite understandably. We don't just fall off the edge of phenomena..... we take baby steps, and don't look down, until it is too late.



    (cont.)



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    Post by Jake Reason Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:39 pm

    Well Dan, I don't think Jethro has a clue what you're saying. But then I had six years to learn Dan-speak, so I understand.

    There are fair number of speculative fundamentals in your BPWH apologetic here.
    - Man's history = 6,000 years,
    - Time machine would fall off the earth if tried to go any further back than that,
    - Only 1 soul that has lived 700 billion (70x10^10) experiential man years,
    - Science "facts" report no consciousness,
    - Oil comes from Dino fossil age.....

    That's a lot of suppositions to rely on.

    And the current knowledge pool has confirmed most of them to be wrong and/or unfounded.

    I'll give you an A+ for articulation and bravado. But I'd have to say, You missed the mark. Well, that might be an understatement. Your arrow didn't land in the same County.

    I think I hear whispering in the RP/JASON wing. Or is it snickerings.
    But then, what do I know?



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    Post by dan Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:34 pm

    And you, Jake, have the patience of Job........ patience with the paucity/poverty of my pedagogy.

    But I think there may be some substance to the point that we confuse technology with ontology. This should be obviously the case with artificial intelligence...... there is no there, there. There may be something like it is to be a bat, but there is 'nothing' like it is to be a computer. There is no consciousness in a vacuum, and that is all that we have between the transistors or relays. It seems so obvious, but it is also so subtle. The best and brightest have been persuaded to the contrary. It is the strong delusion that has led to the great apostasy.

    Yes, it is about relationalism. Relationalism abhors a vacuum. Does nature abhor the vacuum tube? Does the vacuum tube destroy (natural) relations? It certainly does, if it leads us to the absolute reification of atoms (electrons?), swerving in the dark.

    If atoms didn't exist, we would have invented them. The point of the BPWH is that they didn't, so we did, with a few little nudges from God, bless his ever loving heart!

    And, so now, in these end times, we see our lonely little egos as swerving, meaninglessly, in the vacuum of deep space and deep time......
    But then one day I left my girl
    I left her far behind me
    And now I’m lost, so gol' durned lost
    Not even God can find me
    Been there? Done that?

    That is the ontological vacuum. Yes, it is a projection. Our technology helped to get us into it, and can also help to get us out, but not without a swift kick in the pants, as with an MoAPS. God help us. God help me.

    Yes, we are the prodigal sons. Not the prodigal spawn. That's all we have to understand. How much faith will it take?


    Where are our ideas? Often they seem to go swerving in the dark, but is there any space between them? Yes, it is our unconscious. It took us awhile to realize it was not a vacuum. What is the space between the numbers, or between yes and no? We do strive to fill it in. We keep trying to reify that vacuum, even if only with measuring rods, or an abstract coordinate system.

    I also refer to the principle of sufficient reason. The BPWH is a pleroma of sufficient reasons. That's all. We stretch those reasons until the cows come home, until nothing is left but atoms in the void.

    .


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    Post by dan Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:47 am

    The meeting with KS of GFC has been postponed, possibly for political reasons...... if he didn't do a background check, he should have.

    Tomorrow is the BGF planning meeting, and then on Sunday, I'm supposed to get another stab at SfA.

    Maybe I should combine the GFC and the BGF talks, at least in outline form......

    1.) It's a bloody miracle that sapience exists. In fact, it is such a miracle that it is much more reasonable just to suppose that mind came first, or, at the least, sapience is a necessary part of any existence, in which our existence is not a miracle, it is a necessity. Then, all we have to do is ask ourselves whether something is more reasonable than nothing. Is it possible that nothing might ever have existed?

    2.) Given mind, the biggest miracle is that there aren't more miracles, that the world doesn't seem more like a dream. Our dream-maker would then have had to put every effort into routinizing the Charism of Existence.

    3.) A crucial aspect of the BPWH is that you and I are the Great Routinizers of our shared cosmic Charism...... that we are the co-Authors of the cosmic normativity that we call the world. That normativity is the level playing field on which our egos operate, on a daily, routine basis, comprised of our natural and social laws.

    4.) There is a natural end to the process of routinization, which is defined by the natural end of technology. That End is perfect global communication. Technology can bring us halfway to that End. The rest of the way is defined by the Millennial Rapture.

    5.) From this perspective, the worrisome question as to whether we are a Cancer or a Chysalis becomes a no-brainer. Is the Earth experiencing its death-throes or its birth-pangs?


    Then what? Now what.......?


    6.) I have just outlined for you the MoAPS of the BPWH. This is the long prophesied advent of the Spirit. We are all about to be slain in the Spirit! We are about to awaken from our slumber of materialism, after all these many millennia.


    Any questions......?


    What will happen to the world when we awaken.......?

    7.) We will depart from this realm of routinization. As we rejoin the Creator in the Apocatastasis, the Ouroboric circuit of Creation will have been completed, and so will have been reset to the Genetic/Edenic status quo, ante. For us, as mortals, it will be the end of the world and of our mortality. But, from our immortal perspective, we will recognize Creation as an essential component of Eternity.


    So what........?


    8.) We will no longer have business as usual. We will understand that Wisdom has been crowd-sourced, from day one. More democracy....? Smarter democracy!

    9.) Economics....? We will have Bio-metaphysical economics. What?! We will begin the two-hundred year process of laying away our pennies in Heaven, of reintegration, of trying on new personas. We will no longer be 7 billion characters in search of an Author. We will have come to know ourselves for the first time. It's all about getting reacquainted. Money? Fiscal cliff? The fiscal cliff will look like a handicap ramp, relative to the Eschaton! It's just a matter of keeping everything in perspective. We will need economists more than ever, but their job descriptions will be changing, on the the fly. We are all cosmic economists, now? What is the cosmic economy? It is about the virgin and the dynamo...... we being the dynamo. We are the 10^10 windings on the armature of the Earth. The Omega >> Alpha spark-gap is also the magnetic-gap........
    As with electric motors of the period, the designers did not fully realize the seriously detrimental effects of large air gaps in the magnetic circuit. Antonio Pacinotti, an Italian physics professor, solved this problem around 1860 by replacing the spinning two-pole axial coil with a multi-pole toroidal one....
    That's us, sports fans.



    12:10--------

    Economics exists now to facilitate the formation of the Chrysalis. The chrysalis will be twelve-segmented, into the 12 megalithic/megalopolises that stretch across the gap, stitched together, phenomenologically by the noah's ark spinoffs from the 12 motherships of our Exodus, some 200 years from now, when there will be ~144 million of us.


    Cousin Toby is teaching himself the banjo, in the background. He was talking about his goals, and the mentioned Wm Glasser in connection with his counseling work at Summit Achievement.


    2:10---------

    And now there is the shooting in Connecticut....... Was it a 20-year-old shooter?

    A parent on CNN is wondering when the shootings will stop.

    There is a name for the shooter...... young male from Newtown, now living in NJ, has a Facebook page. But there is a residence in Newtown that is being investigated.


    2:40----------

    Now there could be a second shooter, as being reported by CBS.


    3:30-------

    'Hopefully', it was just the earlier killed brother of the shooter, who may have been rumored as a second shooter.

    What lesson is there? Gun control? Why would God permit this? That is the only question that will count, in the end.


    Ok..........

    I think there has been significant progress with the new understanding that it is much more probable that mind came before matter, than vice-versa.

    This is especially true if one gives any cognizance to paranormal phenomena. Those who afford no such cognizance are almost uniformly uniformed about the mind-matter problem.


    Tomorrow I will be with, maybe, five members of the BGF. On Sunday I'll be with about the same number of SfA regular attendees. Why so few, I will ask, in each venue.

    In each case, I will attempt to explain how this paucity is connected to the personal nature of God. How far can I go in that direction before someone dials 911? That is a practical consideration with which I have more than a little familiarity.


    4:30-----------

    Ok, this will be my #1 message to both BGF and GFC. Neither one understands the miracle of creation.........

    Not even those at GFC? No, they don't. They do not understand fine-tuning/anthropics.

    Nor do they understand that God would not have gone to all this trouble to produce a defective Creation.

    Nor do they understand that the intellectuals are also acting on good faith. They do not understand that there could already have been a Strong Delusion and a Great Apostasy.


    5:40------------

    I now note, for the very first time, that it was God who sends the Strong Delusion, 2 Thessalonians 2. Yes, we will need to discuss this, at some length.

    Why would God wish to delude his Children? What sane parent would do that?



    (cont.)

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    Post by dan Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:56 am

    Why, in heaven's name, would God wish to send a strong delusion that would misguide even his most faithful, leading to the Great Apostasy? What insanity is this?

    Back in the day, Protestants were wont to blame this on the Catholics, and I'll wager there are more than a few of them who still suppose the Pope to be the Antichrist, but they've given up trying to figure out which one, worrying instead about which will be the last. Bless his heart, bless their hearts.

    Regarding prophecy, generally, we have the historicists, presentists and futurists, bless all of their hearts. I'm content to subscribe to all three.


    2:15--------

    I'm supposing that the strong delusion is materialism, which is an essential component of God's self-concealment. It is the glass through which we see darkly. Do any of these delude the faithful? Well, has not modernism entailed a great apostasy? Does not history unfold in accord with the plan of our salvation?

    I do wish to speak to both BGF and GFC about the miracle of existence, and whether existence can be disentangled from phenomena or from sapience.



    (cont.)



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    Post by Jake Reason Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:38 am

    dan wrote:Why, in heaven's name, would God wish to send a strong delusion that would misguide even his most faithful, leading to the Great Apostasy? What insanity is this?
    The badge of insanity does not belong to G-d, but man. Those "most faithful" you speak of are the "most phony". They diminish the teaching and example of Y'shua/'Jesus' and elevate the teaching and example of their local religious peer pressure to conform to a "phony faith" that Y'shua/'Jesus" called "the doctrines of men".

    The truly "most faithful", will not be deceived by the strong delusion. But they will be filled with sorrow for those who see not and listen not.


    Back in the day, Protestants were wont to blame this on the Catholics, and I'll wager there are more than a few of them who still suppose the Pope to be the Antichrist, but they've given up trying to figure out which one, worrying instead about which will be the last. Bless his heart, bless their hearts.
    The Catholic Church is the most idolatrous religion on earth today. Idolatry is a required practice of Catholicism.

    This is the prevalent reason why Jews and Muslims reject Christianity. As they vehemently reject the practice of idolatry, and the creation and honoring of idols. Just as 'Jesus' and the Apostles vehemently rejected idolatry as well.

    The Jews and Muslims look at Catholicism and naturally presume that is what Christianity is. And they know their holy scriptures are very clear about idolatry. And so when they compare their scriptures to the practices of Catholicism, they naturally must conclude, that Catholicism can not be following in the way of the God who inspired their Torah/Hebrew Bible and the Qur'an. They have no choice but to reject Catholicism. And if Catholicism is Christianity, then they must reject Christianity.

    Idolatry is a major contributor to the apostasy, and may arguably be the No.1 fundamental cause. It is subtle and seductive to honour and adore great people in place of G-d. And thus it has always been popular.

    But 'Jesus' and his Disciples teach the opposite. Who is one to listen to? If one chooses the Priests and Bishops, they will fair better in their community. Put the Bible on the shelf. It's not needed. Tune into the Pope instead. He's on Twitter! Pray to Mary. She's the Mother of God. Or pray to your favorite Saint, they will speak to God on your behalf.

    What should G-d think about all this?

    The Bible is the most readily available book in the world. Anyone can read the teaching of 'Jesus'.

    Martin Luther read it. And was shocked by what he found.
    500 years later, the idolatry continues unabated.


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    Post by dan Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:39 pm

    Jake,

    I'm supposing that materialism is a form of idolatry, finding its origin in the gospel of the Incarnation, the Eucharist and similar beliefs that are subscribed to by all Christians. It is just this that sets us apart and makes us special. After the Incarnation, there logically followed materialism, and that this sequence was essential to our salvation.

    God knows that it takes all kinds to make the best possible Creation. His tent is a big one. It is all of Creation. Let us not rush to judge. Let us not condemn, we who do not have access to the whole truth. His truth is even larger than his Creation. It will be inescapable, when it comes.

    .
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    Post by Jake Reason Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:27 pm

    dan wrote:Jake,

    I'm supposing that materialism is a form of idolatry, finding its origin in the gospel of the Incarnation, the Eucharist and similar beliefs that are subscribed to by all Christians.
    I am supposing that I am like Moses, and that the Golden Calf was the Pinnacle origin of Idolatry. Materialism is an extension, an evolution of the Golden Calf.

    Dan, you are a philosopher, a reductionist and a holist, this should be easy for you to understand.

    >

    What was the Golden Calf all about?

    Why should the Israelites make such a thing while their leader, Moses was up the mountain communing with God? Were they idiots to build such a thing? Well we surely know that Moses was shocked by their lack of understanding. But what was so bad about making a Golden Calf? And how does this relate to Scientific Materialism? Most Christians would not know how to answer this. At Least not correctly. But it is important to understand, for it was the day that changed the world forever thereafter.

    They were not idiots. In fact they made it in honor to God who saved them from bondage. It was a thanksgiving offering. And it was extremely costly. It required they give up their most prized and costly possessions. They made it to Praise God the most high, for he is good and faithful and has answered their prayers and released them from their burdens of slavery.

    Have you heard the story differently, Dan? If you have, you've heard an incorrect account. The building of the Golden Calf was a sacrifice of extreme piousness. They truly felt that when Moses returned, he would be teared with Joy for their Godliness and faithfulness.

    But when he returned with the tablets of ten commandments, he was shocked by their errors. Now imagine being one of those who arose the enthusiasm of the people to make this great statue, to sacrifice all their gold which they would have had to hide for years from their captures. To sing praises to God in their joy in the building of it. And Moses is upset!? huh!

    Catholics don't understand either. They will say they are not idolaters, they do all they do in Praise to God. Just as the Israelites did.

    So why a Calf? Real cattle were a gift from God to man. They bore mans burdens in toiling the earth. They provided milk and cheese for years. And then provided meat at the end of their life. The Cow was the greatest gift to man. And only a God honoring person would be wise enough to recognize this as being something to be thankful for. The Israelites were God honoring. They were full of Joy that God had delivered them from generations of slavery. What better thing could they do, then to build a Calf in Honor to God? And make it of Gold. For that shows even more faith that God will provide, and they don't need to rely on money. God will provide. The Golden Calf was a Beautiful Symbol in the eyes of the faithful Israelites. WHAT COULD BE SO WRONG WITH IT?

    This is the true story of the Golden Calf, Dan. This is the way it really was. The story is told differently by Idolaters who want us to believe the Israelites were heathen stupid people to make such a ridiculous thing. But that's not what happened at all.

    Surely the Israelites were surprised that one of the commandments on the tablets Moses brought down, was that they should not make any image, graven or otherwise of any thing on earth in honor of God. Nor where they make any image of heaven or even God. None whatsoever was the commandments.

    Why? What could be so wrong with that?

    And what's so wrong with a Statue of Jesus or Mary? It is a good thing. Their meanings are intended to be Godly, Holy, Reverent. Exactly like the Israelites Golden Calf.

    3,400 years later, ~95% of the world still doesn't get it.

    con't



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    Post by Jake Reason Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:03 pm

    [quote="Jake Reason"]
    dan wrote:
    is an essential component of God's self-concealment.
    And that is it!

    There is no such thing as "God's self-concealment". In reality it is an oxymoron concept. And the root cause of the thought that God is self-concealing, is Idolatry.

    When Moses arrived down the mountain and saw what they had done and the Golden Calf. He was carrying two tablets of stone, with writing on them. The first two statements were:
    1. "I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me".

    2. "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below".


    Historically, #2 was one of the oddest, most peculiar, religious statements the world had ever seen. And to this day it is still not understood by the vast majority of mankind. Including Christians and other religious people.

    Idolatry is a conscious manifestation of "separation". The conceptualization of being separated from G-d, gives cause and justification to Idolatry. If the thought of separation from God were not present in consciousness, then an Idol would not be made. Because the conscious would not comprehend it. The thought of separation is a paradigm construct of the mind. This paradigm gives fundamental form to a conscious comprehension. If the mind accepts it as reality, then it is a pseudo-reality to the conscious mind.

    The thought of constructing an idol is rooted in the desire to represent the pseudo-reality of separation. Forming a symbolic remembrance. The "remembrance", is that the mind is separate, but longs not to be. The symbol that the idol is stylized in, focuses the mind to God, which the mind of the pseudo-reality thinks it is separated from.

    However there is no separation. Separation does not exist in reality.

    And that is why idolatry was commanded against. For it reinforces 'separation' as real, while it is not.

    --------------

    In reality, ALL is interconnected in some way or another. Man could not exist without the earth, the earth cannot without the sun, the sun cannot without the Universe, etc etc. And man can not exist without the mind. Man can not contemplate God and Cosmos without the mind. And only through the mind can man experience God.

    God is within. God walks with us. God knows every hair on our head. And we don't even know every hair. But our body does. It knows when a new one should replace the fallen one. All is interconnected. There is no separation. There are only degrees of understanding. But God is always there. God knows all our thoughts. There is no place we can go to get closer to God. And there is no thought we can have that is separate from God's knowing.

    Idolatry however, permits us to maintain our pseudo-reality. Which is not real. It gives us permission to remain unreal and believing we are separate from God. Idolatry is a mediator between us and God. Yet there is none required.

    If we did not permit Idolatry, then the thought of them would eventually fade from our consciousness. And when it fades away, there would be nothing left in our conscious to separate our conscious from God. The ending of Idolatry would end our pseudo-reality.

    Hence the seemingly peculiar commandment. The commandment was given for "cause and effect".

    -----------------

    1,400 years after Moses, Jesus made another extremely odd and peculiar proclamation. The Highest Jewish religious authorities asked him when the Kingdom of God would come. These were men who knew all the scriptures and probably read the Torah everyday. 'Jesus' said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you"

    Yet even today 2000 years later, there are nearly a billion Christians praying to Mary, or Jesus, or their favorite Saint to help them. huh! And even some Protestants will clench their gold Cross pendant while they pray, in hopes that God will hear them better. huh!

    Why don't they know that God is within them?

    Idolatry.

    ---------------

    To Dan in closing, So where did Scientific Materialism arise from?

    I'm supposing that its foundational cause is rooted in the practiced acceptance of Idolatry. This pseudo-mind reality conditions man's global societal consciousness to adapt "separation" as real. The natural evolutionary extension of this, is a societal conscious separation from everything.

    Thus Science interprets everything as an object. Scientific Materialism is therefore not the 'cause' of mankind's delusion, but rather the 'effect' of Idolatry.



    edit spelling


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    Post by Jake Reason Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:53 pm

    Dan,
    I realize the above is nothing new to you. My rather extended reply was intended to empathize that the end of "Scientific Materialism" will not be sufficient to absolve the delusion.

    But rather not until Idolatry is removed as a mediator between the consciousness of man and G-d.

    I do like the Pieta though, sorry it has to go. So too the Buddha statues. I don't think Michaelangelo nor Siddhārtha will mind. Maybe we'll have Museums in the Millennium. For the kids. Or not, I guess holograms will do.

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    Post by Jake Reason Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:38 pm

    And now a brief apologetic to our resident Catholics, including RP's confidant, John S....

    dan wrote:Jake,
    Let us not rush to judge. Let us not condemn, we who do not have access to the whole truth.
    Dan,
    I did not write, to condemn. But to bare light upon truth.

    You are more a philosopher and scientific historian, whereas I am more a religionist and theologian. You see Scientific Materialism as the root cause of man's failing. I see Religious Idolatry as the root cause of Scientific Materialism.

    However, you do not despise science, nor do I despise religious idolatry. Catholic idolatry has paved the way for the production of some of the most creative and perfect works of art and architecture in the world today. Magnificent achievements of sacrifice and genius. And they have served billions of people in countless positive ways.

    I am simply pointing out philosophical "origins". Just as you are. That's all.

    They both have to go eventually, materialism and idolatry. They have served us well. They have not been without purpose. But they are soon to run their course.

    Moses told us 3,400 years ago, neither would be needed. And 'Jesus' reminded us the same. They also told us that materialism and idolatry were not images of eternal reality. And it looks like we're on the cusp of catching on.

    It's just sad it's taking us all so long. There is so much more awaiting for us, once we learn to put this childhood behind.


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    Post by dan Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:32 am

    Thank you, Jake. We both see a connection between (scientific) materialism and idolatry. We will need to explore it further.

    At the SfA, my 10 minute talk may be preempted by the school shootings. My present intent, however, is to connect the dots...... a pale blue dot and a green dot, as in little green men. In order to connect these two, we will need a third dot. It will be a red one.........


    2:05---------

    Things went very well, this morning, IMHO. The outstanding question at the moment concerns the followup. None, specifically, was suggested......... Does this mean that the ball is still in my court, or that there is a desire that there not be any followup? I will be exploring this question, at least until my next presentation at SfA.

    I have spoken with Sam about this, and I have a call into Ron, who may be about to meet with the Pope, but I have not heard from him since he left, almost two weeks ago.

    I shook hands with pastor KS, after the service. He seemed preoccupied. There was barely any mention of Newtown, in the service, and none in SfA.

    The plan is that I will brief Sam on the SfA meeting, and arrange for the two of us to meet with Bill S, asap. I will then talk to Paul S of BGF about moving my talk to January. Sam is concerned that this would be tantamount to our taking over the BGF, which would then likely become defunct. We shall see.

    And I'm thinking about requesting a second opinion concerning the status and history of the R&A show. I will consult with Ron, prior to making a formal request. If he refuses to cooperate, I will visit the local offices of one or both of my Senators. This is just as a logical preliminary to any serious attempt to move forward.

    I would suggest to Bill that he should consult with the GFC board of elders concerning my status at the church and within the Christian community. They have two likely choices...... kick me out, or kick me upstairs. Which will be the path of least resistance?


    3:30-------------

    Sam and I still have the Thursday meeting with an interfaith group to which he, partly on my suggestion, has invited his Sufi friend, from Pakistan.

    It has occurred to me that Adam L could have been motivated, in part, by the Mayan calendar business. We shall see if that timeline turns out to have had any influence in his rather distorted thought processes.


    3:50----------

    It has been two hours since I called Ron's cell phone # and sent him an email.

    I have just submitted the following request @ his agency's website.......
    I would like to speak with someone at the agency concerning my 21 year long liaison with Ronald Pandolfi.

    I would hope to have some response by tomorrow morning. In the meantime I will be contacting the local offices of my US Senators.

    Dan
    The request was submitted here........https://www.cia.gov/cgi-bin/comment_form.cgi

    The confirmation # for this RFI is EYW33J8.

    Given that there is a likelihood of a connection with the Mayan calendar, I would confidently hope that the law enforcement agencies have instituted a special alert for copy-cat perpetrators. The fact that Ron may be speaking with the Pope, on or about this date, may also be of some significance.


    4:15-----------

    Now, I undestand that normal folks, under normal circumstances, would have made such an inquiry, several years ago. But, in this case, there are extenuating circumstances. Long ago I made public, my previous inquiry to the legislative branch, concerning the R&A show.

    I refer you to my timeline...... http://www.bestpossibleworld.com/nexu66.htm#timeline

    Therein, you will see reference to a c.1995 meeting with an SSCI staffer. Said staffer was Chris Straub, then the ranking staff member for that committee. You will find several references to those three meetings and to a subsequent phone conversation, on our about 9/13/01, at the BPW site, and at OMF I/II. On that day, I also met with an FBI agent in Catonsville. Since those meetings, I have labored under the impression that my communications with and/or about Ron were being monitored by responsible authorities.

    In as much as things continue to move forward, is it not now appropriate for me to seek some assurance, from an appropriate third-party, that these communications are still receiving whatever should be their appropriate level of monitoring?

    On 9/11 there were ~3,000 deaths. Let us hope that there will be fewer deaths, even as we enter into these endtimes. Most evangelicals are expecting >~10^9 violent deaths, in the endtimes.


    5:10----------

    Just had a 9' convo with Jack S. He suggested that I call Geo K or Gary B in order to contact Kit G. Ok, I will make those calls...... and then I'll send emails.


    5:40----------

    From: Dan Smith
    Date: December 16, 2012 5:35:39 PM EST
    To: George Knapp, JACK SARFATTI
    Cc: Kit Green, Ronald Pandolfi, GaryBekkum
    Subject: Attempting to contact Ron and/or the CIA......

    Things seem to be moving forward wrt the Endtimes.  I have requested the CIA to contact me to confirm any possible oversight of the so-called R&[D] show.  

    I am blogging about this on OMF II....... https://openmindsforum.forumotion.com/t6p690-hello-cy-hello-omf-ii#1514

    My understanding is that Ron and Aliyah are having a personal meeting with the Pope, this week.  I would like to speak with Kit Green about this, but he and I have had no communications in several years.  

    I will be contacting the local offices of my US Senators, unless any one of you can provide me with some continuing information.  

    The only one of you that I've been able to contact is Jack, who suggested this next move.  


    Dan

    From: Dan Smith
    Date: December 16, 2012 6:19:45 PM EST
    To: jack
    Cc: George Knapp, Kit Green, RonaldPandolfi, GaryBekkum, KimBurrafato, Colleen Thomas , Mollyann Wingerter, Ryan Dube, Jagdish Mann, IFPA GROUP-EUROPE, Paul Murad, Sharon Weinberger, Amara Angelica, StephenBroadbent, Caryn, Paul Zielinski, Leslie Mitts, "Mark, Saunders, COLIN BENNET
    Subject: Re: Attempting to contact Ron and/or the CIA......

    I thank you, Jack, for this timely followup.  You and Kim seem to be the only ones I can contact when Ron & Co are out of town, maybe visiting Benedict.  

    Yes, you and I should reconnoiter in January, to do an update on the possible proximity of the future horizon.  And no more black eyes, hopefully.  

    Yes, when the moon is full, many will howl, just by our nature......

    Dan


    On Dec 16, 2012, at 6:09 PM, jack wrote:

    Stay calm and carry on Dan.
    Don't take any serotonin inhibitors they cause strokes & homicidal urges. Listen to Michael Savage radio he explains all that. He has a PhD from Berkeley in a relevant field.
    The mass shooting has destabilized fragile minds like robert Collins including my Texas cyberbuly who has crawled out from under her rock after a long pause in response to the mass murder in Conn.



    (cont.)



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    Post by Jake Reason Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:24 pm

    My!

    Itchy feet, Dan? You're taking this rather seriously. Has 21/12 got you concerned that something might hit the news, besides Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays?

    When you told me about a R/A Pope meeting, my first thought was; There are a lot of people in Rome besides the Pope. And it's a nice place to visit.

    Que sera, I guess you deserve a confirmation of some sort.
    Best wishes





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    Post by dan Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:30 pm

    Thank you, Jake. You have been my best correspondent, besides Sam, over these many years. You should get a gold star.


    7pm---------

    Yes, I still suggest that we be vigilant wrt copy-cats wrt the Mayan calendar. I do think that we do need to restrict gun ownership. And we do need to restrict the use of magazines of ammunition. I believe that the NRA will no longer be a potent political force, in this arena.



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    Post by dan Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:40 am

    It looks like I'm staying put, this morning. I don't yet, or still, have the courage to make a federal case out of the BPWH. This morning it is the Sun, or, perhaps, the lack of it, behind the clouds, that is permitting my doubts, my second thoughts. It is not easy for anyone to stand up, point to the Sun, and declare it to be a figment of our collective imagination. Yes, the Sun is a sobering thought. I speak of Creation as a dynamo, but it still is the Sun that seems to power that dynamo. And we do have all the issues of energy conservation.

    From this perspective, is it still not much too easy to ridicule the BPWH, just as with Samuel Johnson kicking the stone in the path. Christians have enough problems, without having to bring additional ridicule upon themselves. Is it just as well that Bill S interrupted my presentation, yesterday? I still wasn't ready for prime time?

    I'm still suffering from the occasionalism of the Islamic philosophers....... as with the flame and the ball of cotton. Is it not the flame that causes the cotton to burn? Is God required to intervene in causation? Can we wonder that philosophers are held in low repute? We could say the same with the Sun and a magnifying glass. How do we snap our fingers and make this go away? Heck, we Xians will believe anything, even a young Earth, when we feel like it.

    I've been here, before, any number of times...... lost in space and time. I usually am able to find my way out, but not permanently, it seems. If it's not the Sun, then it is the stone or one of the innumerable other stubbornly persistent illusions. Lord, why do they have to be quite so stubborn?! Do the ugly facts always have to defeat the beautiful truth? It hardly seems fair, now does it? Why does the correspondence theory always have to defeat coherence, or keep causing it to stumble, quite so persistently? Nonetheless, the weight of the facts is, ultimately, something rather subjective. In that sense, objects can't hurt us, but, still, sticks and stones break our bones..... No?


    Each time I get lost, it seems like the first time. That, in itself, is a bit strange. Lostness should be so familiar to me that I should have the map on the back of my hand, but I look, and it's not there. Which state of mind should be the natural one...... being lost, or being found? Neither one seems entirely natural.

    Aren't I a bit like the spelunker and the ball of string? Should we not suppose that, after getting lost in the cave umpteen times, the spelunker would remember to bring the string. But, rather, it seems that I keep forgetting it. Dang me!

    Which way is up? Which is the beginning, and which is the end? Or am I supposed to start in the middle, somewhere, somehow? Is this rocket science?

    Yesterday, at SfA, I started at the easy end...... the pale blue dot and the little green men. That is a walk in the park. Bill stopped me, just before I got to the physical/fiscal(?) cliff, bless his heart. Maybe that's where I dropped the ball of string. Coherence is a bit like juggling........ you see how many balls you can keep in the air, at the same time. But, if you drop one, then you have to start all the way back at the beginning, with or without the string.

    Somewhere, I have to find a spot to jump over the river Styx, the metaphysical river of no return. The problem of nothingness may well define the narrowest spot along that river. That would also be where the river moves most rapidly.

    I think we all agree that an empty universe makes no sense, and, if you add one atom to that empty universe, it still make no sense. You see, we have the sandpile problem...... how may grains of sand does it take to make a pile? How many atoms does it take to make a universe? This sounds horribly subjective, does it not? This is what is known as the Sorites Paradox.

    So, how do I turn an epistemological problem into an ontological one?

    On the one hand, we have the appearance of the Sun..... hey, no problemo. OTOH, we have the mechanics of the sun. Have I ever had a clue about this? It's ok to be a climate denier, but being a solar denier seems a bit much.



    Noon------------

    Why can't we be like the Egyptians, and just have a Sun god, Ra? The Sun and Moon do make a divine pair. Does that explain sunburn? Back on the BPW site, I resorted to using heliotropism to explain Helios. Is that backward, or what?

    Trinitarianism is a big step toward polytheism and nature spirits. That's why the monotheists get so bent out of shape by us Xians. But, yet, I do claim that the idea of the incarnation was a necessary spur to the subsequent rationalization of matter, but it did turn out to be a very slippery slope into atomism. Ra is a significant obstacle to getting back up the slope. Or could he help us out? Certainly his helpmate is a Diaphanous one, the very stuff of metaphysics, if we can take Neil with a grain of moon-dust. What do they say..... don't let the smoke get in your eyes, don't let the Moon break your heart.

    Why is it not enough just to chalk the Sun up to Anthropics? Actually, it is not easy to answer that question. Should that be a clue? But what else can I do, in the end?

    The special problem of the Sun, may have to do with the idea of Creation as a dynamo. But if the dynamo has to be plugged into the Sun, then what is the Sun going to be plugged into? It does seem that our dynamo is hanging by a slender thread, metaphysically. Not to mention the infinite regress.

    All the other photons I am content to chalk up to direct perception, but that doesn't seem to work for photosynthesis, now does it?



    1:20-----------

    The flora are liable to have a very different connection with the Sun, than are we, fauna. We come to an ontological fork in the road. The sun is having to do double-duty, within the BPWH. This doesn't bother the physicists at all. They just chalk it up to good old anthropic luck....... atoms swerving in the dark. They don't have to tell any Just-so stories. I'm saying that the sun is incidental to vision, but crucial to synthesis.

    The other problem I seem to have is with fire. Is there not a connection? I return to both problems, periodically. Fire is not doing double-duty, not obviously. I posit it as a natural byproduct of metabolism...... only a bit dodgy!

    Instead of the sun, we could have an an ecosystem based on hydrogen-sulfide, as with the flora and fauna dependent only upon the deep-sea vents. There is even speculation that life may have originated therewith. Frankly, I prefer the sun.


    Hey, wouldn't Creation have been a lot simpler, if we had just had mana? Occam would have loved the mana solution. Wouldn't we have made the ideal couch-potatoes? And why couldn't we have stopped with atomic physics? We did we have to bring in nuclear physics? Look at all the problems it has caused....... much more trouble than it is worth!

    What I'm trying to do is find some related, less obvious, problems, to see if they might shed any light on this big problem. It does seem rather unique, however. It does stand out like a sore thumb.




    (cont.)



    Last edited by dan on Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Jake Reason
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    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 28 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by Jake Reason Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:18 pm

    dan wrote:
    Why is it not enough just to chalk the Sun up to Anthropics? Actually, it is not easy to answer that question. Should that be a clue? But what else can I do, in the end?

    The special problem of the Sun, may have to do with the idea of Creation as a dynamo. But if the dynamo has to be plugged into the Sun, then what is the Sun going to be plugged into?

    Is the Sun an independent perpetual machine, or is it plugged in to the Universe?

    http://www.plasmacosmology.net/electric.html#

    scroll down to "Electric Stars", there is a link to a PdF file;
    http://electric-cosmos.org/Rejoinder.pdf

    excerpt from page 4:

    "A word about helioseismology: This 'science' is an exercise in a posteriori 'curve fitting of observed data'. If we see certain oscillations and fluctuations in any set of data we can always 'model' them – fit a mathematical curve to the data by 'least squares fit' or some other criterion. But then to claim that this model 'proves' what is occurring inside the Sun, where no observation has been made (or is possible), is logically unsupportable. Thompson goes on to say, "The problem faced by solar physicists is not that there is no explanation, but rather that there are too many potential explanations to choose from!" That constitutes a very poor argument for asserting the unique correctness of the standard solar model. And as we shall see below, disconfirming data is pushed to one side in the hope that someone, someday, will be able to explain it away. Dr. Gallagher and many of his colleagues are not as complacent as Thompson. Astrophysicists are all too prone to hypothesize invisible mechanisms (they often call them 'dynamos') and unobservable forces (dark energy comes to mind) whenever their gravity-only fusion model needs propping up. Thompson‘s "many potential explanations" are unlimited in number only because of the keenness of astrophysicists for inventing yet more arcane, fictional, invisible entities and forces – while steadfastly ignoring electrical explanations.



    Last edited by Jake Reason on Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:33 pm; edited 2 times in total

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