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Who's Disclosure is Disclosure?

Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:16 am by Cyrellys

The narrative war is in full swing. When there's a 100 different competing narratives, how is it possible to discern a disclosure?

Is it akin to which truth is Truth?




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    Post by dan Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:50 am

    First topic message reminder :

    Here goes Nothing........

    The Princess is barely talking to me, and I seem to be holding her kid hostage.......

    I guess they’d better send in the SWAT team.  

    Just another typical day in the life of the family..... of any microcosmic family........
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Links to the BPWH Glossary's 

    The first is to a partial glossary......... https://openmindsforum.forumotion.com/t251p700-hello-cy-omf-ii-part-2  

    And at the top of the glossary is the link to one of the several original mnemonic pages, grouped around April of 2016........ https://openmindsforum.forumotion.com/t236p425-hello-cy-omf-ii-part-2 . 


    Last edited by dan on Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by Big Bunny Love Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:35 am

    From openness,
    there is no other

    From clarity and efficient action,
    what’s needed is done

    From kindness,
    things happen in their time
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    Post by dan Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:17 am

    Or, maybe I’m wrong.  Maybe, with forgiveness and redemption, we can walk away from history....... instant paradise.  

    Falling in love can have the power of redemption and forgiveness.  Probably not as often as we’d like to suppose, but, if we have tasted love, we have had a close encounter with such a miracle.  

    Can one fall in love with God?  

    More than a few folks have recounted such experience.  

    If I’m not mistaken, smelly is making such a claim.  

    It’s quite possible that he is a better lover of persons and God, than I am.  Maybe that’s what he takes me to be lying about.  

    I may love the idea of God, more than I love any actuality.  

    I don’t think I dissemble about being philosopher....... a lover of ideas.  

    Ideas can be steadfast, sometimes more so than people.  But even ideas can bite you in the rear end, if you get too lazy.  

    Just because you think you’ve been saved, doesn’t mean that you can rest on your laurels.  Is smelly resting on his laurels?  It can seem that way.  Is he being honest about that?  

    If you’ve not experienced being lost, how can you experience being found?  

    In God’s Kingdom, will we close the door on being lost?  

    If smelly is right, the apocalypse of the Big Love could be swift, indeed........ one thousand years was not even in the ballpark.  

    No reason that we can’t all start having near death experiences with the Eschaton....... les petits morts, eschatologique..... or something like that....... as we get abducted by God.  



    (cont........)
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    Post by dan Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:33 pm

    I put it out there........ how can we love a creation without loving a creator?

    Can we love something that is not a creation?

    We can love sunsets and a cool draft of water...... we are imbuing those phenomena with ourselves.  

    We see ourselves reflected in the things we love..... there is familiarity.  

    And sometimes we are attracted to the Other.  

    We are awed by the Other........ by the depths of space or of the ocean...... by the storm..... by that which overwhelms.  

    Awesome and fearsome are cognates.  

    There is that within us which is not liable to leave the Other alone.  

    That is what God is for, and is there not that of God within all of us?

    Consider any bhakti tradition....... in yoga, in Buddhism...... you name it.......

    It is to become one with something else...... to expand ourselves, by incorporation....... or to lose ourselves in some other.  

    We suppose the self to be infinitely extensible...... or a drop into the ocean.  


    12:30..........

    Moksha is often billed as a release from.  Is it not also a release to?  

    Many suppose that it is a release to nothing.



    (cont.......)
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    Post by Big Bunny Love Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:15 pm

    I don’t have any claims on anything Dan.
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    Post by Big Bunny Love Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:12 pm

    One shows and exposes themselves, it’s the only way.

    When it’s a matter of living and dying, an urgency rises, a desperation.

    We are seized by forcez.

    And shredded on the floor.

    The threshing floor.
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    Post by dan Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:53 pm

    Are you suggesting that we forgo civilization and culture?
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    Post by Big Bunny Love Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:06 pm

    No, it will reform after threshing.

    That's how it usually seems to go.

    But I am speaking of the personal process.
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    Post by dan Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:28 pm

    Why are you so intent on a dieback?

    Is a dieback essential to the best possible world?
    .........


    I take sunyata to heart.  

    Is is another way to look at relationalism, or co dependent arising.

    This is the Parmenidean One.  

    This also Buddha Nature which every sentient being possesses.  

    It would also refer Kantian Noumenon....... also to the collective unconscious.  

    By emptying one’s mind, one achieves luminous mind.  

    I’m glad that smelly has achieved luminous mind.  

    Not having a luminous mind disqualifies me from Truthhood.

    I respectfully demure.  


    4:45.........

    At the end of his last post, smelly admits that he is speaking only of a personal ‘threshing’ process.  

    The threshing will be internal and not external....... minor detail.  

    I’m glad we got that straightened out.  

    Personal reform will naturally lead to social reform.  

    In other words, Mama don’t need no social reformers...... no SoTs, thank you very much.  

    Ok, how about a few backup SoTs, just in case you change your mind?  

    smelly would prefer the spontaneous global emergence of the BPW vision.  

    Are we allowed to use social media, smelly?  

    Are we allowed to talk about the MoAPS to other people?  

    This we be a rather peculiar paradigm shift.  We will wake up one fine morning, and all 10^10 of us will have glommed onto the BPW.  

    This is so we don’t have to go through the messy process, with religious start ups out on the streets, competing for mind share.  

    Hey, we could have Christianity, without anyone getting hurt.  

    Buddhism worked like that, even though there was a nominal Buddha.  

    The Buddhist revolution was remarkably peaceful.  

    The linkage of Buddhism to Sri Lankan nationalism is the most notable exception.



    (cont.......)


    Last edited by dan on Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by Big Bunny Love Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:29 pm

    You passed GO, collect $200.

    I am sharing from the heart as a magical realist. Magick realism, or marvelous realism is a style of fiction that paints a realistic view of the modern world while also adding magical elements. It is sometimes called fabulism, in reference to the conventions of fables, myths, and allegory.

    It's not totally fiction, one's imagination makes it real.

    "Freud was looking for a rational, causal explanation for the subconscious world, which he reduced to taboos, family romance, sex and death drives. Being a hard-nosed 19th Century empiricist, he was skeptical, or perhaps even terrified, of esoteric phenomena; he told Jung to beware what he saw as a ‘black tide of mud’ in mysticism. But Jung was a mystic, and his interest lay precisely in the world of the unseen and occult."

    I am not a pure empiricist or skeptic, that way leads to the dark side. I'm a syncretic mystic, but I don't need to fuse things together, they fall together.

    It can be difficult to make out what one like my self is saying, cause it isnt always rational.

    It's a high wire act, YMMV.

    I think I have the basics though, we use consciousness to uncover ourselves Wink

    Fascist Mysticism is evil perhaps.

    I'm working on it.

    "Freud had no room for occult speculation: he seemed to view mysticism as a neurotic disease, or at least something that should be understood in scientific terms. My sense is that this same Freudian fear and loathing of mysticism — a certain terror of the irrational, the dark, and the unknown — is what people fear in Jordan Peterson, who is a scientist but also a Jungian mystic. It is therefore no surprise that Pankaj Mishra’s recent hit piece is entitled: ‘Jordan Peterson & Fascist Mysticism’.

    This fear of ‘the black tide of mud’ continues on in the culture wars. The ‘hard-nosed rationalists’ are at war with the ‘mystics’. People like Sam Harris, whose view is that ‘intelligence is a matter of information processing in physical systems[i]’ seems similarly worried about mysticism. Neuroscientist and psychoanalyst Iain McGilchrist, on the other hand, believes that this is a reductive view: “Is consciousness a product of the brain?’, he wrote. ‘The only certainty here is that anyone who thinks they can answer this question with certainty has to be wrong[ii]’. Freud and Jung fought this same eternal war between reason and mystery, and the conflict rages on.

    Certainly, fear of fascist mysticism is not unfounded: after all mysticism, the occult, and the ‘collective unconsciousness’ are terrifying because we don’t understand that much about them — and some doors are best left shut. Nazism, for example could be thought of as a kind of pre-rational mysticism, and Hitler a kind of negative mystic monster. However, was Jung a Nazi, as Pankaj Mishra seems to suggest? Actually, such rumors have since been proved unfounded: Jung actually risked his life in a conspiracy to bring down Hitler."

    We can't judge, but here we are at war again, mind and heart. Jung is the key, the wolf in their hen house. An archetype is a limit.

    Lucifer is not pure evil, he is pure Light. Christ is a fool as much as a hero. We can't just paint them as one thing, their myths embody multiple archetypes as we each do.

    "For example, Christ is an archetype of the ultimate hero, Lucifer of pure evil, Judas of betrayal, Cain and Abel of the warring brothers, and Adam and Eve of the fallen man and women. Archetypes are representations of a complex reality — the grammar or code with which we understand and compose the human story. Like piano chords, some are dark and some light, some major and some minor, but each has a certain axiomatic quality. The amount of archetypes are limited but they can be arranged in limitless ways — just as the few notes of the western scale contain the possibility of infinite variation.

    William Blake understood archetypes before the word was in circulation. He called The Bible ‘The Great Code of Art’, which is another way of saying that The Bible is the book that contains the archetypes. This can be understood, with or without religious belief, because enduring stories are existential, rather than merely moralistic or religious — atheists can benefit from knowing the mythopoetics of The Bible, as well as believers.

    The Jewish born Christian mystic Simone Weil was an atheist when she had what she described as a religious awakening. She subsequently asked herself: how could this happen to a non-believer? She came to an interesting conclusion: that it was only though honest skepticism could she have found God: “One of the most exquisite pleasures of human love” she wrote “ — to serve the loved one without his knowing it — is only possible, as regards the love of God, through atheism.[iv]” In other words, the person serving the highest truth under whatever banner is more ‘godly’ than the unthinking, dogmatic ‘believer’. And even more radically, a loss of faith might be necessary for the birth of a genuine spiritual awakening. Perhaps our post-modern loss of faith is necessary for a more genuine future mysticism to be born.

    When asked if he believed in God once, Jung replied ‘I don’t need to believe. I know’[v]. Peterson, on the other hand, gives a humbler answer: ‘That depends on what you mean by God[vi]’ or ‘I don’t believe in him, but I am afraid that He is real’. Peterson has revived the notion that we should fear God and Hell. This is appalling to progressives, who want to imagine the world John Lennon sang about ‘with no hell below and above us only sky’. But Peterson understands what the mystic Gurdjieff meant when he talked about the necessity to understand ‘the terror of the situation’. Perhaps mysticism cannot be born prior to a certain salutary terror."

    I can speak or point to this terror.

    The intellect serves embodied wisdom.

    This is where I am floating.

    One must embody Truth.

    "Imitation of Christ — which Jung described as the hero journey — is no easy task. And membership in a religious organization obviously doesn’t make one holy. A sort of total humility, total surrender to the investigation of truth does. Peterson did not fall into Coffin’s Christian triumphalism, nor did he allow himself to be told which books to read.

    So who else fears Peterson? Intellectuals and leftists, obviously. The ‘black tide’ they fear is their own shadow — the shadow of utopian dreams. The world of perfect equality has often led to a world of perfect horrors, as the 20th Century has shown us. We don’t want to see this shadow because it contains all the potential horrors that we are capable of, despite our professed compassion for the world. Pankaj Mishra’s violent — and yes racist — description of Peterson as ‘romancing the noble savage[viii]’ is a good illustration of that very shadow. He is an anti-racist who, despite himself blurts out racist epithets. Is he unaware of his own intolerance and resentment, and perhaps of his own envy — the envy of an intellectual for a real embodied philosopher? At least that’s what it seems like to me.

    The ‘leftists’ call Peterson fascist because he holds up a mirror to their own fascistic desire to control the conversation. The language police want to control and compel speech — and are particularly humorless. Perhaps they have no connection to the ‘deplorables’ or lower classes who they are trying to liberate, and are envious because Peterson has climbed down from the ivory tower to speak directly to the masses. Another one of Peterson’s sins is being popular — he is not an elitist. As I have joked before, he is leading the real revolution of the proletariat."

    Perhaps we have been overwhelmed by the "devouring mother" myth we fears the man maturing, so he is kept a boy, well, Trump is the result.

    "Each person has a shadow to reckon with — the shadow of the left is the devouring mother; the shadow of the right is the tyrannical father. The former wants ‘safety’, the latter ‘control’. And the really difficult reckoning — which Jung brought forward and which Peterson has popularized — is that wisdom comes from acknowledging the dark aspects of our soul, which no one really wants to do. To know that the worst lies hidden in ourselves is a terrifying realization. But the alternative, as Peterson keeps saying, is much worse: to remain an overgrown child, or a tyrant, or a devouring mother, or a disembodied intellectual; it is to become disassociated with the body and possessed by various ideological cults on the left and on the right. The alternative, as Peterson has said, is indeed hell."

    I choose to wake up and not slumber in adolescence by claiming my power through responsible exercise of it. I will not live in Hell or Heaven.

    "nothing threatens the status quo more than a mystic. That doesn’t make him Jesus or The Buddha however — he has his faults — but I would say he is at least a bodhisattva. I say that hard mystical realism and spiritual illumination is what can heal the various divides in our hearts — but again, this is something I cannot prove empirically. I don’t have to believe it, I know it."

    I really enjoyed the article above, they are onto it.

    What to do when knowers of reality are hated and ignored?

    That's not my problem, I know what to do and when, that's good enough.

    https://www.writermag.com/improve-your-writing/fiction/writing-magical-realism/
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    Post by dan Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:05 pm

    Ok, smelly smokes the peace pipe.  

    He figures that the devil he knows is probably better than the one he doesn’t.  

    Personalism is gonna have to get its hands dirty with actual persons....... and I’m volunteering.  

    If there is anything to ‘fait’, here, it is already accompli.  

    Will I magically emerge from under the bus?  

    It may not be so magical.  

    The magic will be to turn OM around.  

    Someone will have to breathe down the neck of the PtB.  

    Grant Cameron is the only ufologist who might touch OM with a ten foot pole.  I’ve hardly ever been able to speak with him.  Doug is the only link, and Doug is not speaking much either.  

    When I last spoke with Ron, he was about squish OM.

    The Princess will have to relent. I have seldom been more than a hand me down from foot.

    Someone else has to reconnect with Doug. The Princess will have to say something to somebody. Maybe Ack can get through. That would be something for smelly to work on.

    Doesn’t smelly need a mustard seed of expiation?



    (cont........)
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    Post by GSB/SSR Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:52 pm

    Just when you thought it was safe to be a personalist ...

    Quantum Darwinism spotted in diamond spins

    Quantum Darwinism, put forward by Wojciech Zurek of Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, argues that the classical states we perceive are robust quantum states that can survive entanglement during decoherence. His theoretical framework posits that the information about these states will be duplicated many times and disseminated throughout the environment. Just as natural selection tells us that the fittest individuals in a species must survive to reproduce in great numbers and so go on to shape evolution, the fittest quantum states will be copied and appear classical. This redundancy means that many individual observers will measure any given state as having the same value, so ensuring objective reality.


    https://physicsworld.com/a/quantum-darwinism-spotted-in-diamond-spins/


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    Post by Big Bunny Love Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:29 pm

    Ha
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    Post by dan Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:34 am

    Gary,

    If Woj Z is correct, then I must be wrong.
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    Post by Big Bunny Love Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:22 am

    “In the end, I know I’ll never get it right. Sometimes getting it wrong is the best thing anyway.”

    So, I cannot help anyone, I found I could not even help myself. You don’t know what will happen to a kind or cruel or no word/action.

    But “don’t know, straight on” is magick.

    The practice of best focus and best relaxing workz.

    This is real magick, which is true will.

    True will is not iron, it’s a liquid.

    Anyone who keeps at it, will find by not finding Wink

    But listen, I learned a secret, we all have love within us. What breathes it into life seems as myriad as the persons on Earth.

    I trust life and death.

    I trust Love in all its forms and none.

    But I had to lose it all to find it, ha!

    I’m just a cliche prodigal son.

    The great Zen teacher Huangbo strides into the hall and says to the assembled monastics, “You people are all dreg-slurpers! If you go on like this, when will you ever see today? Don’t you know that in all of China, there are no teachers of Zen?”

    A monastic comes forward and says to him, “Then what about all those people like you who set up Zen places that students flock to like birds?” Huangbo replies, “I don’t say there is no Zen, only that there are no teachers.”

    I don’t say there are persons or no persons here, this is what I say of thiz, we are here and this is happening.

    Empiricism is a tool.

    It is not the first or last tool or the final word on anything.

    It is a tool we use, like consciousness is a tool ;0

    But there is a way of learning in the cosmos.

    We come to a point where we are all overwhelmed by that which we are.

    In stages you are able to be aware of more, it seems evolution drives us to not stop once triggered.

    Epigeneticz bitchez!

    Life iz still mostly a mystery to uz, let uz humbly hold each other’z hand az we move forward.


    Last edited by smelly on Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:25 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Post by Big Bunny Love Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:14 am

    Just stop lying, you are addicted to thinking and being.

    If it didn’t feel good, why would we do anything?

    We learn, a little of the bitter, makes the sweet sweeter.

    That’z it right there.

    And then you are hooked.

    Death will sober your azz right up though.

    We don’t don’t think Death sponsorz religionz maybe Wink

    Nothing is an effective cure.

    Holy shit, life is worth it, stop wasting it you scream when you kick the smack for the 1000th time.

    This is the territory of the beat and bluez poetz.

    Watch out, the Dragon may swallow you.

    It’z awesome to be devoured and expelled through the bowlz of the Cosmoz.

    Might az well feel good Wink

    How doez evolution move a cell, with something sweetz and some thingz bitter.

    I have nothing figured out Dan.

    Forget you met me maybe Wink

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    Post by Big Bunny Love Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:02 am

    Uh uh, they have simulations you say Wink

    https://thenextweb.com/insights/2019/07/30/quantum-darwinism-may-solve-the-question-of-whether-god-plays-dice-or-not/

    We go with what makes the most sense you say?

    Terrified materialists.

    If it doesn’t make sense, it doesn’t compute you say?

    My god these muppetz.

    These are children Dan at play in the fields of eternity.

    They have almost totally lost the beat.

    Love may move them yet.

    They are not yet statues.

    Hey, what do I know, oh yah, I just know Wink

    I can’t prove anything.

    Prove, that’s a funny word.

    There is proving that the way something appears is usually traced to a cause, an apparent truth.

    Then there is knowing from experience.

    Not modeled experience.

    Or simulated experience.

    Actual experience.

    What is true about your experience?

    Prove it.

    We are insane monkeys too stupid to persist perhaps.


    Last edited by smelly on Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by Cheguevoblin Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:03 am

    Dan,

    I see no reason to get through to the Princess.

    When my mind is still, quiet, and empty, then I am already through to her and there is nothing left to say or do.

    You trying to set me up to look like a fool or something?
    Wink

    No way!

    How about you get through to her Dan?

    It’s your idea anyway.
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    Post by Big Bunny Love Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:10 am

    Whatever is to be done, we will do.
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    Post by Cheguevoblin Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:24 am

    We’re not doing anything.

    “Held now within the knowing; Rest now within the peace. Take of the fruit, but guard the seed.” -Led Zeppelin
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    Post by GSB/SSR Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:50 pm

    And on the other hand ... (it's devil's advocates all the way down) ...


    The Delusion of Scientific Omniscience
    As time passes, the claim that science can comprehend everything looks increasingly nutty.

    https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/the-delusion-of-scientific-omniscience/


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    Post by dan Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:19 pm

    True....... I find myself unable to have a discussion about the BPW anywhere but here, on OM.  

    Who am I, then, to recommend proselytizing?  

    What, then, is going to happen?  

    Whatever is to be done, we will do.
    If personalism is correct, this is the most likely way forward....... but will mere earnestness make any headway against the forces of nihilism, chaos and global populism?

    Personalism and populism seem to be on a collision course. Can populism be a harbinger of personalism?  
    For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind
    Must God speak from the burning bush?  

    The bush burns........ and then God speaks.  

    Does God require a Tet offensive...... a blitzkrieg?  Perhaps.  

    Perhaps Bannon is simply creating a fire break...... against what is to come.  

    Is Gary finally giving up on heroic materialism?  

    Ok, Gary, what’s next....... now that the fortress walls of materialism have been breached?  

    Does it not have to be show and tell?  

    I can tell a vision, but the Princess has to show us a portal.  

    What was going to happen with the Desert Rendezvous, in 9/16?  

    Was that just fake news?  

    It’s been all quiet on the Western front....... at the Lake, in Las Vegas, at Area 51.  


    1.......

    Global nationalism....... neo nationalism.  

    It is said to be the result of the global recession, at least since 2008.

    Folks realize that the internet may be the last hurrah of heroic materialism.  

    What will be the encore?  

    How will disillusion not lead to dissolution?  

    Once a downward spiral commences, how does it not become a tailspin?  

    Nothing like playing with fire.......

    God lights a match, and we have a global conflagration.

    Me....... I’m the little chicken...... hanging on tight......

    When it rains....... it pours......



    (cont.......)
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    Post by Big Bunny Love Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:18 pm

    Don’t know, straight on.
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    Post by whoknows Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:20 pm

    “Homosexuality they are saying isn’t really genetic.”
    Comments like this from “researchers” just shows ignorance.
    We are more a product of cultural and social constraints than any other metric you my try to apply.
    I think the greatest danger we face these day is the boxes we keep building for our selves.
    No matter what you do as long as it’s done with love, is.

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    Post by whoknows Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:33 pm

    Dan said
    “Can one fall in love with God?”

    Have you fallen in love with yours self yet?

    “Empiricism is a tool.”

    Most of us are not firing on all of our sensory tools?
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    Post by Big Bunny Love Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:28 pm

    Falling in love with being is just being.

    Eating is being.

    Sleeping and making love, being.

    Thinking and feeling is being.

    I do not see any problem.

    I don’t know how many will take responsibility for themselves.

    The deep is deep enough to stand with it all.

    One does what one can.

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