Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

First topic message reminder :

Testing.......

Yes, it is working.

Congratulations to Cyrellys & Co.!

I will be continuing the BPWH blog from Compass Morainn, which was a continuation from the original OMF site on ProBoards, which is in the process of being re-archived from that site.



(cont.)

dan wrote:MD02,

I don't think you're getting it. What is there about Gestalt Switch that you do not understand?

Do you understand the Copernican Revolution? Now, can you imagine a reversal of that revolution?

That's what I'm talking about, here. If you don't understand what I'm talking about, then your comments will only increase the confusion.

Please, stop, look, listen and ask questions, before making further confusing remarks!
-----------------

I find nothing confusing with Mdonnall's remarks. Ask Jack, I'm quite confident he would agree in principle with Mdonnall. So too, Jack's friend Kim. Has not CK also considered these things as real concerns?

Why should you be confused, Dan? Perhaps it is anger that wells up in you. What wisdom is there in expressing animosity against what is plain for all to see?

You call for the reversal of the Copernican Revolution? Should the world be considered flat once again? Are the stars simply pin holes in the firmament? Where the rains comes through? That the earth is the center of all creation? And the universe was birthed solely for man? These are the beliefs of the pre-Copernican world. Why should you ask man to return to such arrogance and ignorance?

Thank G-d, the world is not that dumb.

-----------------

Mdonnall's comments are apropos, I'll reply next post.

[quote="dan"]
10am------------

From: CK
Date: September 18, 2012 9:49:00 PM EDT
To: Dan Smith
Cc: Princess Aliyah
Subject: Court Rules

In preparation for "an interview with the Princess," I thought it would be useful to remind you of a few simple court rules.
You may approach the Princess only after being formally announced.
You may speak to the Princess only after she speaks.
You must remain a suitable distance and not look directly at the Princess.
She may choose to face you during the event, or she may remain looking away.

LOL, that's priceless.

BTW Dan I have a question before I forget....

dan wrote:6.) 4M/K/SoT/X2? Why might this be important?

"4M"? You used to write it - 3M, denoting third millennium. Why have you changed it to 4M?

How might this help us to avoid a Tribulation/Armageddon?

Avoiding T/A. That was Mdonnall's query.....

Jake,

You call for the reversal of the Copernican Revolution? Should the world be considered flat once again? Are the stars simply pin holes in the firmament? Where the rains comes through? That the earth is the center of all creation? And the universe was birthed solely for man? These are the beliefs of the pre-Copernican world. Why should you ask man to return to such arrogance and ignorance?

Well, my friend, your question is demonstrative, actually, of more arrogance and ignorance than I have ever been able to muster, in my three score and eight.

My further response to you would be similar to my response, above, to Sam......

Yes, Jake, itnis easy to make a mockery of idealism, as it is also easy to make a mockery of materialism, and I have done that, on numerous occasions.

But, in the context of my blog, here on OM, it is a less than constructive ploy, and I am not beholden to host hostile witnesses on my blog, other than to provide examples of the ignorance of materialists, that you represent, so effectively.



(cont.)

dan wrote:Jake,

You call for the reversal of the Copernican Revolution? Should the world be considered flat once again? Are the stars simply pin holes in the firmament? Where the rains comes through? That the earth is the center of all creation? And the universe was birthed solely for man? These are the beliefs of the pre-Copernican world. Why should you ask man to return to such arrogance and ignorance?

Well, my friend, your question is demonstrative, actually, of more arrogance and ignorance than I have ever been able to muster, in my three score and eight.

My further response to you would be similar to my response, above, to Sam......

Man needs to shed its arrogance and ignorance in order to discover the soul, as fact rather than mere belief. Knowledge and understanding gained since Copernican is a prerequisite to such a discovery.

Food gained by fraud tastes sweet, but one ends up with a mouth full of gravel. (Proverbs 20:17)

All glorious is the princess within her chamber; her gown is interwoven with gold. (Psalm 45:12-14) Yet, any bed the man with a discharge lies on will be unclean, and anything he sits on will be unclean. (Leviticua 15:4)

Perhaps the Princess' gold is but lead, transformed with the soils in the bed.

Jake,

Are you saying that idealism, as opposed to materialism, has, by the Copernican revolution, been rendered impossible?

What this issue, between us, has boiled down to, in the past, is whether God would allow the scientists to deceive themselves.

Is it impossible for you to imagine that scientists could be self-deceptive?

It is precisely this issue that Jack and I were debating, in the recent video, on lensman137.

The whole point of that video, as I stressed repeatedly, in that video, was simply to get Jack to admit that idealism was not implausible. But you, Jake, are claiming that idealism is implausible. What is it that you know about physics and cosmology that leads you to believe that Jack is wrong, in his assessment of the plausibility of idealism?
--------


Sparky,

Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone. And are you your brother's keeper?
---------


And, Jake,

Do you understand that partial information can be dangerous?

Scientists, by their own repeated admission, are only ever dealing with partial information. If they are not always on the lookout for a MoAPS/MoAGS, then they are, collectively, engaged in the high crime of casting a pall of orthodoxy on issues of ultimate concern to humanity.

I am here, potentially as God's representative, to drag the scientific establishment, kicking and screaming, before the cosmic court.

Do you have a problem with this?

Just wondering.........


@Sparky, again......

I am here, sparky, because I have work to do. If you have no work to do, here, may I kindly request that you get the f*ck off my reservation?




(cont.)

dan wrote:Jake,

Are you saying that idealism, as opposed to materialism, has, by the Copernican revolution, been rendered impossible?

What this issue, between us, has boiled down to, in the past, is whether God would allow the scientists to deceive themselves.

I don't think Newton was deceived. A spiritual kin he was. Rather revolutionary too. To embrace Protestantism while the Inquisition still flourished abroad. Thank G-d, Henry the 8th was so selfish for a son.

What is gravity? Why were we required to learn how to measure it? Was not Newton a God-send? Consider Dan, what might be gravity's reflection/equivalent in the realm of immateralism?

I suggest Spirit. Both gravity and spirit are great attractors. One attracts all other material to itself. The other attracts all other spirits to itself. Just a philosophical thought.

My Point? We needed Newton as a step along the way to discovering how G-d designs. When we figure it all out, we'll discover that immateralism and spirit is the foundation of all that is.

Your request for a return to a pre-Copernican age may be a cute metaphor, but it looses your audience.

Is it impossible for you to imagine that scientists could be self-deceptive?

Well of course! I find the Higgs Boson discovery rather cute. They measured a force and called it a particle. I can bare to humor them.

All these steps are required. It won't be long now til we discover the soul. That will be the MoAPs.

Jake,

This is a reasonable response to my question.

But there is a much more important issue that you fail to grasp, and which is crucial to the BPWH...........

Namely, that, when I drag the scientific establishment before the cosmic court, it will not actually be to chastise them, but rather to thank them profoundly, for having played the fall-guys in God's cosmic drama. Without their technically exquisite performance, there could not have been a second coming. If only I could play my part, as well as they have played their part!

Can you even begin to wrap your mind around what I have just said. Jack Sarfatti was able to do this. And I am confident that Aliyah will be able, also.


And, Jake, you do mention the soul..........

You say that science is about to 'discover' the soul. This is a very strange assertion.

This implies that, before science came along, we were lost souls. I agree and disagree with this point, both in profound ways....... But that profundity can be appreciated only if you are willIng to spend a few hours with Owen Barfield. I would love to spend that time with you and Owen, right here on OM. It would be well worth it, for all of our sakes.

Will I bring up Owen, in my dialog with the Princess? I may not need to, because she is rather less enamored of Science than are you. Does that mean that she would condemn science? No. She has an innate understanding of God's love. She does not need science to explain to her that all of us are soul-mates. But, Jake, you do seem to need that reassurance, oh, ye, of little faith!

It is my job to minister unto your scientific soul-mates, of equally little faith. Only the scientists have lost their souls. I am here to help them find their souls, and Jake, I can accomplish that task without any further ado..... without any further scientific experimentation of data. The data has been there all along, we simply have forgotten how to understand the data.

Here is a major part of the problem........

Science, implicitly, promises perpetual progress. They have never promised this explicitly, except on the fringes, where Kurzweil and Sarfatti rein supreme. And doesn't this help to explain why my recent rendezvous with Jack might have had some historical significance?

Faith in perpetual progress is precisely what defines the modern mind. Yet, both surprisingly and not so surprisingly, this crucial faith turns out, on closer examination, to be rather superficial. Our modernism is but a gilded age, scratch the gild, and you will see the dross beneath. Ask me about the gilding of the dome of the First Unitarian Church, in Concord. No one had to scratch it. It only had to rain!

Jake is worshipng an idol, whenever he pledges allegiance to perpetual progress, which he is wont to do.


Jake totally fails to understand the cosmic Bait&Switch, as in gestalt 'switch', which has been perpetrated upon us, mainly by our own selves, but with some connivance from our anthropocentric God.

Like most moderns, Jake is very literally and analytically minded. He has almost no concept of the Whole. This is, perhaps, where Trinitarianism is at fault......


1:20---------

It turns out that Trinitarianism is a compromise between holism and atomism, unless you are willing to take a 'liberal', non-literal, interpretation of the Nicene Creed. Well..... what I mean is that, using the Nicene Creed, we extrapolate from 3 to 10^10. Does this make me a pantheist? No, it only makes me, possibly, the first published, true Christian. Hey, sports fans, it's publish or perish.


According to my latest information, I am to be attired as a Peripatetic. Do we have a problem with this?


2:30---------

I will soon be leaving on a preliminary errand into the wilderness, southward. TBMK, the workers there do not carry lunchbuckets, unless they are designed by Gucci.

So, I did ask you to provide questions for the A&D show. I do think that Jake came the closest, in pointing out the difficulty that we moderns have with immaterialism. We will attempt to address this issue.

BTW, does anyone know how to upload audio, especially from an iPhone? There are many utube 'videos' that are actually just audios, with a couple of jpegs. Can't we do this?


5:10-----------

Gary has pointed out that Thomas Drake emphasized his timely professional interest in the information that Christopher Robinson provided to the British and American intelligence agencies, just prior to 9/11.........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWV1DYS-Fxc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Go to the 1hr and 40min mark.....



(cont.)

dan wrote:Jake,

This is a reasonable response to my question.

But there is a much more important issue that you fail to grasp, and which is crucial to the BPWH...........

Namely, that, when I drag the scientific establishment before the cosmic court, it will not actually be to chastise them, but rather to thank them profoundly, for having played the fall-guys in God's cosmic drama. Without their technically exquisite performance, there could not have been a second coming. If only I could play my part, as well as they have played their part!

Can you even begin to wrap your mind around what I have just said. Jack Sarfatti was able to do this. And I am confident that Aliyah will be able, also.

Oh Dan, please. How hard can it be to wrap ones head around such simplistic views? I think it vexes you that I can see the resultant emanations of a world proselytized with your BPWH.

If you are sincere with a motive to avoid/reduce Tribulation/Armageddon (which you do give me cause to wonder) there are a few trojan programs running in your BPWH that need attention. If they are not purged through a malware program, your BPWH (as is) will aid to escalate T/A. Any PtB* should easily see this. (*Those above Presidents and Heads of State).

And, Jake, you do mention the soul..........

You say that science is about to 'discover' the soul.

Yes, this is one of my favorite subjects.

This implies that, before science came along, we were lost souls. I agree and disagree with this point, both in profound ways....... But that profundity can be appreciated only if you are willing to spend a few hours with Owen Barfield. I would love to spend that time with you and Owen, right here on OM. It would be well worth it, for all of our sakes.

Will I bring up Owen, in my dialog with the Princess? I may not need to, because she is rather less enamored of Science than are you. Does that mean that she would condemn science? No. She has an innate understanding of God's love. She does not need science to explain to her that all of us are soul-mates. But, Jake, you do seem to need that reassurance, oh, ye, of little faith!

The reassurance is not for me. I've surpassed "faith", I know.

Owen Barfield? Thank you, I've learned a new word today - Anthroposophy. Fascinating philosophy and practice. However I don't think we need that approach any more. Discoveries over the past few decades make way for a quicker route to resolving the aim of anthroposophy.

We surely are on the verge of discovering the soul as an irrefutable scientific fact. Imagine the outcome of that!

Now of course there will be significant suppressive forces working against its discovery. And even when confirmed, there will be forces who will work diligently to squash its awareness. But come it will none-the-less.

Disclosure is having a part in its discovery right now as we speak. After-all, Ufologers are convinced our bodies are soul carriers. The winds are shifting. Some science is being undertaken. I suspect the 'Nobel' will likely come out of the field of molecular biology. But Physics will help it along. That's an area where Jack can help out.

Why molecular biology? Because it begs an answer to the question;
How does a molecular machine, too small to contain a genetic code, preform complex tasks with purpose and precision?

However soon after the discovery is crystallized, Nobel awards will be of little more interest to anyone.

It is my job to minister unto your scientific soul-mates, of equally little faith. Only the scientists have lost their souls. I am here to help them find their souls, and Jake, I can accomplish that task without any further ado..... without any further scientific experimentation of data. The data has been there all along, we simply have forgotten how to understand the data.

Oh I hear you, Dan. But philosophical deduction doesn't carry enough clout to swing the pendulum of public perspective. Owen Barfield recognized that.

Here is a major part of the problem........

Science, implicitly, promises perpetual progress. They have never promised this explicitly, except on the fringes, where Kurzweil and Sarfatti rein supreme. And doesn't this help to explain why my recent rendezvous with Jack might have had some historical significance?

Faith in perpetual progress is precisely what defines the modern mind. Yet, both surprisingly and not so surprisingly, this crucial faith turns out, on closer examination, to be rather superficial. Our modernism is but a gilded age, scratch the gild, and you will see the dross beneath. Ask me about the gilding of the dome of the First Unitarian Church, in Concord. No one had to scratch it. It only had to rain!

Jake is worshipng an idol, whenever he pledges allegiance to perpetual progress, which he is wont to do.

"I tell you the truth, flesh and blood can not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Sound familiar Dan?
That's my idea of perpetual progress. PP is the road from here to there. And we still have a long way to go.

Man's idea of PP is nothing but stepping stones along the yellow brick road. We're off to see the Wizard. Small steps Ellie, small steps.

In my view, the entire epoch of life and history, is a course in miracles. When we can walk on water without technology, we'll be almost there. Where flesh and blood can not enter. That would be the pinnacle of progress.

But let's not close the patent office just yet, technology and science are like our training wheels. Eventually we'll be able to toss them aside. Look Father, no hands.

So let's not politically engineer the end of progress. It would be like stunting our own children's growth. But rather, let us raise the bar on progress.

Jake totally fails to understand the cosmic Bait&Switch, as in gestalt 'switch', which has been perpetrated upon us, mainly by our own selves, but with some connivance from our anthropocentric God.

Like most moderns, Jake is very literally and analytically minded. He has almost no concept of the Whole.

Oh quit with your toying. Look.... we either wait for the second coming in fear and trembling as the four horseman gallop across the earth. OR, we go after the discovery of the soul with wonder and joy.

I think the later would auto gestalt the X2.

Does the BPWH seek to suppress this discovery, Dan?

BTW, does anyone know how to upload audio, especially from an iPhone? There are many utube 'videos' that are actually just audios, with a couple of jpegs. Can't we do this?

Ask Kim, he'll know

dan wrote:
5:10-----------

Gary has pointed out that Thomas Drake emphasized his timely professional interest in the information that Christopher Robinson provided to the British and American intelligence agencies, just prior to 9/11.........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWV1DYS-Fxc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Go to the 1hr and 40min mark.....

Well lookie, lookie...Serendipity.

Mind can access non local information. Surely JASON knows that, as a matter of fact.

Souls possess interesting characteristics, n'est-ce pas?

Thanks Gary!

The rest of the interview is Gripping! to say the least.

God made meds, so increase your dose and take them now.
Thou knowest the people, that they are set on mischief. (Ex. 32:22)

Finally getting around to Mdonnall ponderings..

mdonnall2002 wrote:@ Jake

Re: “…..To believe we NEED divine intervention….we must think otherwise….”

It is my belief that we may not necessarily “need” such an intervention but we DO require a realignment of thinking. Perhaps ‘Divine Inspiration’ would suffice primarily by still allowing free will to guide our hands reawakened by vigor towards more sensible behavior.

Can you deny that Man needs such a moment in a world of desperately fragmented peoples?

I think we are being given loads of Divine inspiration. In fact, perhaps more than ever before. It's just that many are hiding it under a basket. Or applying the inspiration toward nominal endeavors = playing it safe = luke warm.

What does the world think Christians are doing for good? Well...they drill water wells in Africa, run child sponsorship programs, ship our old tattered clothes to the third world, and provide slop out of a pail for the starving.

OK, they do more than that. But really...haven't Christians been equipped to transform the world? Why don't we have an endless supply of Martin Luther Kings? Why was a Buddhist needed (Gandhi) to be Christ-like for India?

I think too many feel Tribulation is about to fall upon the world, so there's no point in trying to do anything big, as its all doomed anyway.

Think about the parables of 'Jesus' concerning the return of the master and his servants tasked with caring for his talents. And the one about the ladies in waiting when the bridegroom arrives. What are these parables teaching?

I think they teach us to imminitize the millennium kingdom come. On earth as it is in heaven. That's what we are supposed to do, right up to the last day!

How do you sit in a room attempting to have sensible dialog with extremists bent on world submission when they have a predilection to view you as cattle? Can such extremes ever coexist?

Well yes this is tough. But if we be to them as cattle, then we can at least give them some milk to drink. They too seek to know from where they came, where they go, and the straightest way to get there. Everyone needs a torch to light their path in the dark.

How do you Bring all that is intrinsic to your beliefs, Jake, into a singularity involving all peoples? Do you actually believe we have the time to accomplish this looking at the world today? Mind you, not the capacity, the time.

As I added in the post you quote from: "Although improbably, it still remains Possible"

Yes, the clock is ticking. And so I lean toward the pessimistic probability. But none-the-less, those parables above keep imploring us to strive toward imminitizing idealism as it is heaven, unto that day.

Three factors, IMO create the majority of angst on this rock for its inhabitants; wealth/lack of, religious differences, and race. Until something PROFOUND occurs to ALL at the same time, allowing mankind a better perspective in unifying thought – this cycle with repeat with even greater after effects.

Materialism is truly a blithe on this world despite is past contributions towards innovation and advancing the technological aspects of our society. It is only logical to consider ‘what would replace it’ should the system currently in place flounder. Is it an age of immateralism – in which people do not seek to possess things selfishly but to prosper together - a society of needs instead of want? So utopian my thoughts at times, I often mock myself for considering them. Still, therein lies a great fear at the end of the day, a current system must go asunder in order to rebirth of another.

Whoever said upgrading consciousness would be easy?

Eras, new ones taking the place of the previous ones, have always been part of our recorded history. We are unfortunately on edge of another and the poor PTB know the train is headed off the track and are powerless to stop the demise. Man the battlements - Chicken-Little - there will be plenty of fox on the prowl in those days.

Yes so true. And here's my reasoning on HOW...

Social engineering is a tried and tested science. It used to be called the Knowledge of Kings. Today it is wielded by their descendants - the PtB. And the world we see today is a by-product of the use of social engineering.

However unlike any other time in history, the internet has provided a highway whereby the commoner can learn and wield the Knowledge of Kings. And we actually see it happening. Some commoners are effecting world conscious with the power that only Kings could employ in ages past.

Does this mean the gig-is-up for the PtB? No! the world will always need PtB. Heck, even the Biblically prophesied Millennium is ruled by PtB. Think about that.

Right now, there is a war going on among the PtB. The Titans are clashing. The highest stakes ever - the whole world.

And believe it or not, there are PtB who hold the reins of enormous power, who desire a global Renaissance over an Apocalypse. And they are fighting toward that aim. But they need help, they can't do it alone! Because the other PtB truly believe the world would be better off with an engineered massive die-down. To them, the Four Horsemen are the justified means to an positive outcome. They don't understand their own insanity, rather they think the idealists are insane.

What a predicament!

But there is a reason for hope. Everyone wants a promising future for their children. And so IF the idealist PtBs could pull it off, the dark-hearts would wither away with their tails between their legs, for the sake of their off-spring.

The same social enginnering tactics that messes up the world can be applied to transform the world.

It's not over til the angels sing. In the meantime we should try to make them feel at home til the very last day.

So I'm an incurable optimist. I see some of this in Dan, although somewhat diminished.

What's my excuse?
Elohim said we were made in their own image.

Jake and Md02,

Oh quit with your toying. Look.... we either wait for the second coming in fear and trembling as the four horseman gallop across the earth. OR, we go after the discovery of the soul with wonder and joy.

I think the later would auto gestalt the X2.

Auto-gestalt the Second Coming....?! Whoa!

What I'm saying is that the soul of humanity is also the Soul of Creation.... is the Soul of God.

The Soul is not a gestalt..... it is THE Gestalt!

The cosmic Soul can NEVER be objectified by science.

The cosmic Soul is the warp & woof of Creation. It is Love. Will science discover love?

What science can and is doing is pointing to something beyond itself, beyond the objectfiable realm.

The anthropic principle is a case in point. The other main point is the intractability of the mind-brain problem. If science were, somehow, able to objectify the soul, that would be tantamount to solving the mind-brain problem, and thereby enabling the cloning of the soul, which would mean the manufacture of artificial persons. Is this what you want, Jake?

Jake, you are, very simply, ascribing omniscience and omnipotence to Science. You are substituting Science for God. This is Idolatry, pure & simple! This is the Blue Sky Dream of the materialists. This is the Kurzweil technological-Singularity.

And, yes, I have no doubt that God must love materialists/scientists/Existentialists, otherwise he would not have created so many of them/us!

But, Jake, in your latest Blue Sky Dream (BSD), you make no mention of ufos and ETs! Has the cat got your tongue? Are we not supposed to conquer the Heavens? Have you scaled back that part of your former dream, under no small influence from Chicken Little? Have you chickened out, in that regard?

If you are going to have a BSD, how, logically, can you avoid Kutzweil's Singularity and Leary's SMIILE, space-migration, intelligence-increase, life-extension?

Jake, very simply, you wish to have us reinvent the Creator's and/or the ET's wheel.


Jesus, OTOH, offers us a very different vision/destiny.......

He never offered us Perpetual Progress, did he?

He offers us at-one-ment with our Creator. Do you have a problem with this?


Quite understandably, Jake, you believe that we are not Rapture-ready! And, frankly, I know of no one who truly believes that we are...... certainly no one at Grace Fellowship Church.

You say that we will be Rapture-ready only when we can walk on water! Actually, Jake, there is a significant sense in which I agree with you, on this very point! Allow me, please, to elaborate........


But, Jake, what would it mean to be able to walk on water? Would that be a technological feat, or, per chance, would it be a matter of mind-over-matter? This is no small question, is it, Jake?

And here is the crux of that question........

When Jesus walked on water, did he employ spirit or technology.....?

IOW, was Jesus an ET or a UT?

The Visitors are able to walk on water. Yes? Do they employ spirit or technology?

Who should we be attempting to emulate, in our attempt to walk on water? Jesus or the ETs?

If you and I were playing chess, Jake, this would be called Checkmate! Are we playing chess, or are you now going to go and sulk, for a couple of weeks?



(cont.)

dan wrote:
But, Jake, what would it mean to be able to walk on water? Would that be a technological feat, or, per chance, would it be a matter of mind-over-matter? This is no small question, is it, Jake?

And here is the crux of that question........

When Jesus walked on water, did he employ spirit or technology.....?

IOW, was Jesus an ET or a UT?

The Visitors are able to walk on water. Yes? Do they employ spirit or technology?

Who should we be attempting to emulate, in our attempt to walk on water? Jesus or the ETs?

If you and I were playing chess, Jake, this would be called Checkmate! Are we playing chess, or are you now going to go and sulk, for a couple of weeks?

LOL Dan, no check mate, no need for sulking. I already answered your question

I wrote quote:

In my view, the entire epoch of life and history, is a course in miracles. When we can walk on water without technology, we'll be almost there.

"Jesus" was an UT having an ET experience. He said he came into this world. That he was sent. That he was not of this world.
And contrary to contemporary ignorance, there was an historical "Jesus".

Now, I'll return to the beginning of your post

Jake,

A very good response....... but........

So, the primary criterion for our admission to Heaven is not, now, still more technology, but, rather, it is to transcend technology with our Spirit.

No?

Jesus thought that some people of his generation would live to see the Second Coming.

How many more generations, now, ought it to take?

How much more science and technology will we need?

Is it not, much more, a matter of the realignment of our spirits, and how can this occur without a MoAPS/MoAGS, and how can that vision emerge without a Visionary, on the order of a Second Coming?


Do we still need to talk about those poor ETs? Do we not now need to focus on the Visitors/UTs? Is there any ET that could have ever stood up to the Archangle Michael/Gabriel?

Don't we, at some point, have to set aside our childish things..... our technological toys..... our baby-steps?

When are you going to man-up, Jake, spiritually speaking??


IMHO, Jake, the highest Good of our technology is to be found in the still emerging communications revolution. What is the point of that Revolution, if it is not to serve in the realignment of our spirits?

We have, for the duration of recorded history, been experiencing a knowledge explosion.

Are we not overdue, now, for a knowledge implosion? And what would that be, other than a MoAPS/MoAGS, pray tell?

Now, we look through a glass, darkly; but then, face to face!

Are you not ready to confront the truth of our divine destiny? Once we have seen Paris, Jake, how will you, and the PtB, keep us down on the technological farm? Is it not about time for a global miracle?


4pm---------

Hey, Cy, happy 42, in the next seven days!! What are you going to do to celebrate?




(cont.)

dan wrote:Jake and Md02,

Oh quit with your toying. Look.... we either wait for the second coming in fear and trembling as the four horseman gallop across the earth. OR, we go after the discovery of the soul with wonder and joy.

I think the later would auto gestalt the X2.

Auto-gestalt the Second Coming....?! Whoa!

What I'm saying is that the soul of humanity is also the Soul of Creation.... is the Soul of God.

The Soul is not a gestalt..... it is THE Gestalt!

The cosmic Soul can NEVER be objectified by science.

The cosmic Soul is the warp & woof of Creation. It is Love. Will science discover love?

Firstly, the "single soul=God" concept that you subscribe to, is utterly contradictory to all revelation and creation, in my view. I am bound by a covenant with the God-Family. To think we are simply one of God's brain cells (as you put it), is an abomination to me. So your argument concerning the discovery of the soul, makes no sense from my perspective.

I'll attempt to elaborate through your other comments and questions below.

What science can and is doing is pointing to something beyond itself, beyond the objectfiable realm.

The anthropic principle is a case in point. The other main point is the intractability of the mind-brain problem. If science were, somehow, able to objectify the soul, that would be tantamount to solving the mind-brain problem, and thereby enabling the cloning of the soul, which would mean the manufacture of artificial persons. Is this what you want, Jake?

The mind-brain problem is only currently misunderstood to be intractable. The only thing useful about contemplating the current mind-brain problem is that it gives us a peek into the complexity of the soul. But we have many other problems at this time too.

How do molecular machines replicate DNA? Why does DNA replication cease within all the body's cells the moment a person dies? How can mind perceive non-local information? What of clairvoyance? The list goes on.

How could a soul be cloned when it resides both within and outside space-time? There would be no way for us to control it.

All we could ever do is confirm its existence.

Jake, you are, very simply, ascribing omniscience and omnipotence to Science. You are substituting Science for God. This is Idolatry, pure & simple! This is the Blue Sky Dream of the materialists. This is the Kurzweil technological-Singularity.

Not at all.
I'll take this as you confirming that your BPWH does indeed intend on suppressing this discovery. Yes, it would destroy your hypothesis and its intended purpose. Can't have that, can you?

There is no idolatry in discovering the essence of who we are.

Isn't that what "Jesus" kept going on-'n-on about!?

But, Jake, in your latest Blue Sky Dream (BSD), you make no mention of ufos and ETs! Has the cat got your tongue? Are we not supposed to conquer the Heavens? Have you scaled back that part of your former dream, under no small influence from Chicken Little? Have you chickened out, in that regard?

No, perhaps you just misunderstood, although I can't imagine how.

I've always maintained that we aren't going to the stars in spaceships. If and when we do, we'll do it like the men who appeared to Abraham and his nephew Lot. Oops sorry, I mean like the Angels. Or were they men, oh it doesn't matter, you get my drift.

If you are going to have a BSD, how, logically, can you avoid Kutzweil's Singularity and Leary's SMIILE, space-migration, intelligence-increase, life-extension?

Jake, very simply, you wish to have us reinvent the Creator's and/or the ET's wheel.

No, not like that at all. The discovery of the soul would propel us leaps and bounds beyond such tinker toys.

BTW, that singularity you speak of?.... I think we might even have something like that in some secrete place. I'm seeing its foot prints on the net. Or at least perhaps its predecessor. And prophecy indicates we'll be successful at making such a thing. The "Beast" sounds very much like an AI connected to the net. It's only a matter of time.

But when we discovery the irrefutable proof of the soul, everything will quickly turn upside down and inside out. Think about what people will think about when they face that reality of themselves. Everyone will be practicing Owen Barfield and Rudolf Steiner's Anthroposophy. People will be having visions. NDE's without the trauma. Its like a large portal will open up in the minds of everyone.

Hey! there's your Stargate Dan!

Jesus, OTOH, offers us a very different vision/destiny.......

He never offered us Perpetual Progress, did he?

Well,actually he did. Sorry to burst your lowly bubble.

In referring to the miracles he preformed, he told his students - you will do greater things than these.

It seems apparent we still have some ways to go.

So open the gates, let's raise the bar up a few notches. Eventually we'll get there.

Quite understandably, Jake, you believe that we are not Rapture-ready! And, frankly, I know of no one who truly believes that we are...... certainly no one at Grace Fellowship Church.

Correct, I am and any individual can be ready, but 'we' humanity as a collective are not. If we were ready, it would have already happened. I haven't seen anything like - the stars fall from the sky and the heavens roll up like a scroll. "Jesus" and the prophets expressed it would be a pretty big ordeal. Apparently no one could miss it. So there you go.

You know, in some ways the rapture sounds like an NDE.

And that's why I said, "I think the later would auto gestalt the X2."

Jake,

Yes, this is a pretty good response.........

You do say that Jesus proclaimed an eternal progress. Could you, please, quote to us the chapter and verse concerning this eternal progress.

Yes, excellent analogy....... the Rapture is very much like a global NDE. May I steal that from you? So, when might we be ready for this global NDE?

So open the gates, let's raise the bar up a few notches. Eventually we'll get there.

Eventually? Aren't Christians supposed to pray for an ASAP Rapture? Suppose that we can learn to walk on water, in the next hundred years. Would that be ok with you? Would that be too soon?



(cont.)

dan wrote:Jake,

A very good response....... but........

So, the primary criterion for our admission to Heaven is not, now, still more technology, but, rather, it is to transcend technology with our Spirit.

No?

Thank you,
Well individually, imo, each person's life is a journey of discovery, where the most eternally lasting is our relationship with our Creator. Which of course is solely a spiritual criterion to heaven.

However when considering the whole of humanity (us), there must be a purpose to the whole of history, as each generation is a carry-on extension of all our ancestors before us. Such that we are mysteriously linked to everyone who came before us. In this regard, the whole of humanity is like one extraordinarily complex soul. The "we are one" paradigm.

And during this history, we have been being like Father like son and have instinctively pursued development, advancement and the knowledge of all things. Therefore I can only deduce that technological development has been our historical destiny. And that it must inherently form part of the "criterion for our admission to Heaven", as you put it.

You ponder, when should it end? I see no reason for it to end, until such time that we don't need it anymore.

Jesus thought that some people of his generation would live to see the Second Coming.

Correction: "Jesus" did not think that, however most of his disciples thought they would live to see it.

'Jesus' taught by addressing listeners as "you..." You will see da-da-da, you this, or you that, etc. In retrospect we see that he was addressing "believers" in general when he said "you". When he talked about the end times (example Matthew 24:34) He said: "this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled". When taken in the context of his teaching (Matt 24) he is referring to those who live in the end times he was talking about.

Anyone who simply reads Matthew 24 can easily see this context. But the apostles who were listening to his talk at that time, simply thought that all this would happen in their life-time.

'Jesus" knew they thought this as well, and let them continue to think it, because he also knew that the War of the Jews would break out in their time (Titus). And to people who lived in that region of the world, some of the things that 'Jesus' spoke of happening in the end times, would appear to them, like the end-time prophecies. 'Jesus' knew the Apostles would see persecution and war in their lifetime, and he told them so on a few other occasions. So it was best they continue to think Jesus would return in their lifetime, as it would better prepare them to do the work that was tasked of them. Which was to establish his church, come hell or high water, sort of speak.

But the fullness of the prophecies in Matthew 24 did not occur in their lifetimes. And much of it has still not yet occurred. That speech was predominately about "the sign of [his] coming and of the end of the age".

But it included a few of the things they'd see in their lifetime too. For instance he told them they would see the destruction of the Temple. Which they did. (note the Arch of Titus monument in Rome)

(BTW, that Jerusalem Temple had just recently been renovated by King Herod, in that time. Historians estimate that the Temple Jesus spoke in, would cost several hundred million in today's currency. It was renown as one of the most magnificent buildings in the ancient world. Jesus' prophecy that it would be utterly destroyed, was unthinkable in their time. But sure enough, Titus commanded it be completely torn to the ground.)

How many more generations, now, ought it to take?

How much more science and technology will we need?

Is it not, much more, a matter of the realignment of our spirits, and how can this occur without a MoAPS/MoAGS, and how can that vision emerge without a Visionary, on the order of a Second Coming?

I don't know how many generations are left. I used to believe this MUST be the last. However it could be a couple/few more, without contradicting prophecy. The world today, politically and socially, is astoundingly like the many prophecies describing the "end-times" to be. No generation before us has seen so many prophecies unfold in the world, as we witness today.

Do we still need to talk about those poor ETs? Do we not now need to focus on the Visitors/UTs? Is there any ET that could have ever stood up to the Archangel Michael/Gabriel?

Archangel Michael/Gabriel types, are at an "earth forming" level of power and effect. They can manifest/command energies beyond our understanding. The Visitors would be no match.

I'm sure you read, as I, numerous accounts by contactees wherein the UT/ET Visitors report their are awareness of beings we call "Archangels". These UT/ET's also perceive them to be well beyond their capabilities of power and effect.

My overall take of the Visitors, is that some are curious of us. As they were created long before us, and they ponder about what's going on here on earth, in the grand scheme of creation. While other UT/ET visitors are here to assist/protect our development in spiritual cooperation with "Archangel" types of beings.

And I am also convinced that some Visitors have nefarious purposes. Biblically, these would be the ones who went with the "Luciferian" faction of angels, after the great war in heaven that occurred long before the earth was formed. The Bible does talk about this.

Don't we, at some point, have to set aside our childish things..... our technological toys..... our baby-steps?

When are you going to man-up, Jake, spiritually speaking??

IMHO, Jake, the highest Good of our technology is to be found in the still emerging communications revolution. What is the point of that Revolution, if it is not to serve in the realignment of our spirits?

We have, for the duration of recorded history, been experiencing a knowledge explosion.

Are we not overdue, now, for a knowledge implosion? And what would that be, other than a MoAPS/MoAGS, pray tell?

Now, we look through a glass, darkly; but then, face to face!

I generally concur with you. The 'net' is making us more as "one" then ever before. Ultimately, in the heavenly realm, we will all be telepathically connected to all other souls on our same level - "one". As you know, the Biblically prophesied "bride of Christ" = all those written in the book of life.

And so, the technological communications "net", is like a practice course in preparation for mind-meld.

dan wrote:Jake,

Yes, this is a pretty good response.........

You do say that Jesus proclaimed an eternal progress. Could you, please, quote to us the chapter and verse concerning this eternal progress.

"Eternal progress"? I thought we were talking about "perpetual progress". That is the term you have been using all along.

There are no "eternal" progress passages in the Bible. And nothing in the "Jesus" record. Perpetual progress however, is implied in far too numerous verses to quote, both throughout the Bible and the teachings of "Jesus". Basically, man is prophesied to progress until the return.

I will however introject that there is a hierarchy in heavenly beings described in the Bible. Different orders of Angels and Cherubim, Divine Council beings, and even other sons of G-d. Whether there is a progressive development of souls, is not necessarily implied.

Yes, excellent analogy....... "the Rapture is very much like a global NDE". May I steal that from you? So, when might we be ready for this global NDE?

So open the gates, let's raise the bar up a few notches. Eventually we'll get there.

Eventually? Aren't Christians supposed to pray for an ASAP Rapture? Suppose that we can learn to walk on water, in the next hundred years. Would that be ok with you? Would that be too soon?

Praying for the rapture is a survivalist reflex. It's motive is selfish however, in the context of what most people define prayer. Most people think the purpose of prayer is to ask for something for themselves. The more spiritually matured however, pray mostly for G-d's will be done, not theirs. And the majority of their prayers are simply thanks/praise oriented.

I don't think we'll walk on water without technology, until after the return. There may be a few exceptions. Astonishing miracles of the extraordinary kind, do take place today, although sporadic.

200 years? sure it's possible. But I find little teaching value in utilizing clock/times when forecasting spiritual paradigm shifts.


-------------

I'll be out of the rest of the day.

dan wrote:Yes, if I could truly fathom Gary's infatuation with Tegmark, I would be in a much better position to engineer the MoAGS. I used to be allowed to talk to Gary. I well remember multi-hour phone conversations, while rambling in a nearby park. It would seem that, each time, I would finally get Gary to come around to the BPWH PoV.

But a couple weeks would go by, and Gary would be back on his Many Worlds/Tegmarkian hobby-horse. Another marathon conversation would ensue, with similar results. Gradually, Gary became more difficult to reach on the telephone. Now, I have not spoken with him in many a moon.

He continues to send Jack and me, two or three emails a day. These are mainly physics articles, in reference to Jack's old ideas, but I frequently find them of interest, and I thank him. But that's as far as it goes. So, no, I have no clue as to the deeper motivation behind his Many Worlds infatuation.

This is the dis-ease of the modern mind. It positively embraces the cosmic Anonymity of being lost in space and time. Where would we moderns be, without that existential angst? Their's is not to reason why.......

This despite Gary's longtime embrace of the paranormal. It doesn't add up. I have found no way to connect his dots, but there it is, like the crazy aunt in the attic.... pacing the floor, in the middle of the night.

Jack is going to be the same way, evidently...... After holding his feet to the fire, for a couple of weeks, I can finally bring him to a reluctant admission of the plausibility of the BPWH, but, then, it's out of sight, and out of mind, just like Gary. We can lead the horses to water, but just try to make them drink from the fountain of Life......!


4:30----------

As Deborah and I were discussing philosophy, we ran into the following.....

Constantly regard the universe as one living being, having one substance and one soul; and observe how all things have reference to one perception, the perception of this one living being; and how all things act with one movement; and how all things are the cooperating causes of all things that exist; observe too the continuous spinning of the thread and the structure of the web.

This from Marcus Aurelius. Wow!


5:40--------

Out of the mouths of 'babes'..........!


9:15----------

I put much credence into the above quote from MA. IMHO, this is the quintessential statement of theism/BPWH....... there is, ultimately, just one living being. What is that, if not theism.... the living Logos??

Also, NB, that there is just one universal soul that is being spun like a web! I came to this idea, only, when...... less that a year ago. It came soon after the Noah business. Out of the mouths of babes.......!

Please note that Stoicism had a very significant overlap with Christianity....... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism#Stoicism_and_Christianity. No kidding......! And do note that Aurelius (121-180 CE) must have been influenced by Christianity.




(cont.)

no it wasn't Christianity Dan...it was Greek Philosophy and the foundational arguments that arrived with the Fir Bolg...such concepts as from Anaximander: whereas in his view the essential substance (modern soul) of the natural world was what he termed, "the unlimited". Like the tribes of the Old Irish he was involved in geometry and the mapping of the heavens and was involved in the tracking of the planetary repositioning in relation to the ancestral star constellations in the aftermath of the great earth changes.

1. ""immortal and indestructible," surrounds and directs all."

2. The first principle is older than water and is eternal motion; in this all things come into being, and all things perish.

3. The first principle and elementof all things is infinite....It is neither water nor any other one of the things called elements,but the infinite is someting of a different nature, from which came all the heavens and the worlds in them; and from what source things arise, to that they return of necessity when they are destroyed.

4. There are no other causes besides the infinite (such as mind,or friendship), but....it itself is divine; for it is immortal and indestructable.

5. Things come into being [not] by change in the nature of the element, but by the separation of the opposites which the eternal motion causes.

(I suggest here that modern science, historians, and philosophers are not understanding the ancient celtic meaning of eternal motion.)

6. Existing opposites are separated from the unity.

(this is a huge part about why I disagree with Dan's route to reunification with the Creative Source - mankind is acting in opposition to creation and evolution of life...i.e. reducing fertility "voluntarily" as you describe it within a 200 year (three generation life-span) from 9 billion to 144 million...there's no "voluntary" in what the globals are doing, and they're just getting started. The current globalists do not embrace life but rather treat as though they abhore it.)

7. Motion is eternal (remember my comment about misinterpreting what eternal motion is?)...(modern history/philosophy/science assumes Anaximander is discussing the foundational knowledge in modern physics)...and as a result of it the heavens rise. The earth is a heavenly body (sentient), controlled by no other power, and keeping its position because it is the same distance from all things (referring to why it remains in the new solar position - the rest of the solar bodies ceased reacting to the transit and stabilization had occured); the form of it is curved, cylindrical like a stone column (planetary trajectory not the planet itself - you are missing the critical information to see this); it has two faces (stable natures), one of these is the ground beneath our feet, and the other is opposite to it. The stars are a circle of fire, separated from the fire about the world (cataclysm), and surrounded by air (wrong translation or transcription - not air the void. There are certain breathing-holes (incorrect translation or transcription, possibly due to loss of interim knowledge), like the holes of a flute through which we see the stars; so that when the holes are stopped up, there are eclipses. The moon is sometimes full and sometimes in other phases as these holes are stopped up or open. The circle of the sun is twenty-seven times that of the moon (a means of giving relational size for distance measurement in the absence of measuring stones), and the sun is higher than the moon, but the circles of the fixed stars is lower.

(do you see the fixation of the ancient knowledge keepers with the positioning of earth, sun, stars, moon, planets, and trajectory? multiple cultures were involved in this tracking of the new relationships.)

one more brief examle: Xenophanes was less a natural philosopher than a poet, but in his poetry and other works he spoke of the unity he saw underlying everything...this is the celtic concept of "interconnection".

There was in the civilizations of the aftermath disputes such as Xenophanes disagreement with the students of Pythagoras over reincarnation which is a core celtic/pre-cataclysmic principle.

speaking of the creative source Xenophanes relates, "the whole sees, the whole perceives, the whole hears." He is speaking of infinite consciousness/awareness being encompassing, integrated, interrelated, interconnected. For here he relates an illustration of his meaning, "For all things that come into being and grow are earth and water." We (all life/ALL BEING - an expression of Excellence) are an integrated, interrelated, interconnected part already of the planetary consciousness matrix AND on a larger scale the Creative Source....we are already returned; already an integral part of the Creative Source for we are in eternal motion and thus participating.

Remember this from the video I posted at the outing of the Source A situation here on the old OMF? Read: "Accordingly there has not been a man, nor will there be, wbho knows distincttly what I say about the gods or in regard to all things, for even if one chances for the most part to say what is true, still he would not know; but everyone thinks he knows."

This was the secrecy paradigm already slipping into place in his time for the truth-conditions in the aftermath gave rise to a vacuum which unreconcilable contention (the voices of) lent opportunity. A form of Social Pragmatics took control of the truth-conditions where survival superceded the value of knowledge retention in all possible world-states. Secrecy becomes the entity as indirect referent of design no matter what the counter-factual circumstance is like.

Cy

Jake wrote:

You ponder, when should it end? I see no reason for it to end, until such time that we don't need it anymore.

I agree with this. It will be naturally discarded once no longer needed. Yes technology like the net is practice for a more complex interconnectivity, i.e. highly defined telepathic linkage. The foundation of the linkage is already in place and some highly developed individuals already respond to the interconnectivity/consciousness flow.

Jake said:

Archangel Michael/Gabriel types, are at an "earth forming" level of power and effect. They can manifest/command energies beyond our understanding. The Visitors would be no match.

Correct by my understanding...these types are among the eldest/most developed with direct access to the youth (human race) here on this world. Imagery and archetypic presentation is for familiarity and confidence in valued principles of conduct and development.

Jake said:

I'm sure you read, as I, numerous accounts by contactees wherein the UT/ET Visitors report their are awareness of beings we call "Archangels". These UT/ET's also perceive them to be well beyond their capabilities of power and effect.

My overall take of the Visitors, is that some are curious of us. As they were created long before us, and they ponder about what's going on here on earth, in the grand scheme of creation. While other UT/ET visitors are here to assist/protect our development in spiritual cooperation with "Archangel" types of beings.

And I am also convinced that some Visitors have nefarious purposes. Biblically, these would be the ones who went with the "Luciferian" faction of angels, after the great war in heaven that occurred long before the earth was formed. The Bible does talk about this.

paragraph 1 & 2 correct. Paragraph 3 I have not referential experience with. I am aware that the imperatives of some races is not compatible with our own. Would it be correct to describe it as Luciferian? Luciferian is a christian term and therefore part of a religion presenting a history which is one of many and as the nature of religion is to present one way, means, or truth as more right without room for others and without concessions, I have to bear in mind that the term is simply that a term, one view of a situation. It does not mean I would not agree with the content or meaning imbued in it, only that I have no direct personal proof of its truth-value, only what others have said.

There is a tremendous amount of history that has been misplaced, misconstrued, omitted, or outright altered for ulterior/self-serving purposes. We are in that respect with this conversation attempting to construct a dam capable of holding back niagra falls upon a sand foundation. I don't think this means that this work should not go on per se but that we bear in mind and maintain a fluidity that allows for evolution in understanding. I have my concerns about any effort that may result in a new religion or a fortification of any religion causing restraint in new and vibrant ideas. For religions deal in absolutes whereas knowledge and evolution is not unlike water to coin a favorite analogy of the ancients...it is like water, and we are surrounded by it standing upon the earth and beyond it lies all else.

Dan:

My apologies if I do not 'get' much of what you are tying to convey. I do believe you yourself mentioned - or perhaps it was Jake - that only a few people actually do 'get' your constructs.

Rest assured, my dialog is not purposefully destructive. Many things in discussion here I do resonate with. Do take in mind that my presence here is probably the least significant, and that you have accumulated roughly four more decades of lore that has to filter down. Patience, Daniel-San?

With all that in mind - I still cannot explain or illustrate why I am drawn to this flame...

@Jake

Thanks for the lengthy reply as well as some great observations. I will leave it there as to not distract from the direction of Dan's work on the reservation...