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UFOs, Extraterrestrial Contact, Conspiracy, Exopolitics, Geopolitics, Paranormal, Crypto-zoology, Ancient History, Cutting-Edge Science & Special Guests.

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» Disclosure - For U by U
Personalism 101  - Page 14 Icon_minitimeYesterday at 10:08 pm by U

» Why are we here?
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» The scariest character in all fiction
Personalism 101  - Page 14 Icon_minitimeYesterday at 6:47 pm by U

» WRATH OF THE GODS/TITANS
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» Uanon's Majikal Misery Tour "it's all smiles on the magic school bus"
Personalism 101  - Page 14 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2024 9:36 pm by Mr. Janus

» What Music Are You Listening To ?
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» Livin Your Best Life
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» OMF STATE OF THE UNION
Personalism 101  - Page 14 Icon_minitimeWed Nov 06, 2024 12:19 am by U

» Baudrillardian hauntology - what are some haunting truths to our reality?
Personalism 101  - Page 14 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 03, 2024 3:07 pm by dan

Where did all the Open Minds Forum members go?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:29 pm by Admin

With Open Minds Forum restored now for almost half a year at it's new location with forumotion.com we can now turn to look at reaching out to OMF's original members who have not yet returned home. OMF's original membership was over 6,000 members strong, prior to the proboards suspension, according to the rolls of the time. We can probably safely assume that some of those accounts were unidentified socks. If we were to assume a reasonable guess of maybe as many as 30% possible sock accounts then that would leave potentially somewhere between 4800 to 4900 possible real members to locate. That is still a substantial number of people.

Who were all these people? Some were average individuals with common interests in ufology, exopolitics, globalism, corruption, earthchanges, science and technology, and a variety of other interests. Some just enjoyed being part of a vibrant and unusually interesting community. Others were representative of various insider groups participating in observation and outreach projects, while still others were bonafide intelligence community personnel. All with stake in the hunt for truth in one fashion or another. Some in support of truth, and communication. Others seeking real disclosure and forms of proof. And others highly skeptical of anything or limited subjects. The smallest division of membership being wholly anti-disclosure oriented.

So where did these members vanish to? They had many options. There are almost innumerable other forums out there on the topics of UFO's or Exopolitics, the Unexplained, and Conspiracy Theory. Did they disappear into the world-wide network of forum inhabitants? Did some go find new homes on chatrooms or individual blogs? Did they participate in ufo conventions or other public events and gatherings? How about those who represented groups in special access? Or IC and military observers? Those with academic affiliations? Where did they all go and what would be the best way to reach out and extend an invitation to return?

And what constitutes a situation deserving of their time and participation? Is the archive enough? How exactly do people within the paradigm most desire to define a community? Is it amenities, humanity or simply population size for exposure? Most of the special guests have been emailed and have expressed that population size for exposure is what most motivates them. But not all. Long-time member Dan Smith has other priorities and values motivating his participation. Should this open opportunities for unattached junior guests who have experience and dialog to contribute to the world? How best to make use of OMF's time, experience and resources?

Many skeptics would like to see the historical guardian of discourse opportunity to just up and disappear; go into permanent stasis. They think that not everyone has a right to speak about their experiences and if there is no proof involved then there can philosophically be no value to discourse. I personally would respectfully disagree with them. Discourse has always been the prelude to meaningful relationships and meaningful mutual relationships have always been the prelude to exchanges of proof. In a contentious social environment with regards to communication vs disclosure how do we best re-establish a haven for those preludes? Is it only the "if we build it they will come" answer? Well considering OMF has been largely fully functional over the last four or five months this line of reasoning is not necessarily true. So what would be the best way re-establish this? Your suggestions are sought. Please comment.





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    Personalism 101

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    Personalism 101  - Page 14 Empty Personalism 101

    Post by dan Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:28 am

    First topic message reminder :

    This is the topic reminder post for Personalism 101.

    A good place to start is right here……. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/personalism/

    My contention is that the BPWH = Personalism.

    .

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    Post by 99 Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:24 am

    Ok, I admit it... this Denver/Germany thing is a little scary. Will make a note of it and see what happens. (gulp)
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    Post by Cheguevoblin Tue Sep 13, 2022 7:29 am

    😂

    Smelly isn’t trying to change Dan

    Smelly isn’t doing anything

    You can’t reason with a creature like this

    They are impossible

    As far as I see it, Dan and smelly are naturally attracted to each other like 🧲

    Goat and chicken tango

    They could go on with their little dance indefinitely

    In fact, Dan might get a little too bored with out his favorite goat around


    Last edited by Aleph on Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:23 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Post by dan Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:35 am

    Aleph,

    There might be something a little unnatural about the Chivo-chick connection.  

    It is a truncated Hegelian connection……… thesis, antithesis and no synthesis.


    Cy,

    I did not see any connection between Denver and Germany, besides the alleged dates.  

    But nothing like being prepared.  
    …………


    Back in the day, before Darwin, folks had various schemes for talking about history, but they sure didn’t manage to make any contact with the prophetic tradition.  

    We were all just going to ‘evolve’ into Absolute Spirit.  

    Ok, we were going to be one with the One.  

    All without benefit of anything paranormal…….. Heaven forbid!  

    What were those German idealists thinking?  

    It’s not entirely clear.  

    Karl Marx quickly put an end to their befuddlement.  

    After Marx, idealism reverted to phenomenology.  

    The scientific establishment had a death grip on cosmology.  

    There is only an outside chance that the JWST will set cosmology on its ear 👂.    

    I guess we’ll just have to go ahead and open up those portals.  
    ……..


    Somewhere, I did see that Hegel may have dabbled in a cyclical version of his dialectic.  

    It’s not at all clear how the Absolute Spirit would, otherwise, manage to swallow time.  

    I guess folks had a hard time switching from Absolute Time to Absolute Spirit.  

    Obviously, Hegel took time very seriously……. the thought of time being an illusion did not occur.  

    The seriousness of time comes out of the prophetic tradition.  

    I take time seriously, too.  

    It’s not really an illusion……. it’s embedded in Eternity……. as the best possible Metanarrative.  

    plot spoiler……… the good guys win.  

    It’s the bad guys who have the tough job…….. they have to keep on keeping up the appearances.



    (cont……….)


    Last edited by dan on Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:43 pm; edited 9 times in total

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    Post by Cheguevoblin Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:39 am

    Ok, naturally unnatural then


    As far as Denver goes I will say

    Don’t waste your time on speculative conspiracy theories

    Sure, keep some food and water and emergency kits in store just in case

    Nothing wrong with using one of our great tools (forethought) to be prepared for the worst situations

    Wise to invest some amount of time in emergency preparedness work

    That makes us adaptable

    Adaptability is a strength in an ever changing world

    But also remember, you could spend all your energy and focus on preparing for an emergency and then one day while mowing your lawn you could suddenly keel over and die

    Memento Mori

    Bradley Nowell wrote:Hard work good and hard work fine
    But first take care of head

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    Post by Post Eschaton Punk Tue Sep 13, 2022 1:13 pm

    True Aleph, not everyone appreciates the tango, shrug.

    It would be a boring world if we were all the same and had the same goals and views.

    Then we might just be bees or ants.

    I am sure some would prefer all of us being mindless drones.

    Dan, everything that happens has got to ultimately be natural.

    What natural could be unnatural?

    Everything is of nature ultimately.

    I’m just the end of the world comic relief.

    Cy, no one is trying to change world views here Smile

    If one comes here for a world view, god help them, cause we sure can’t.

    I think we actually speak of the same thing from different POVs.

    I am certainly no eschatologist or could be.

    You really can’t talk anyone into anything.

    Mine is just another view than his.

    Maybe I tease him too much.

    I tease children who hold onto toys maybe.

    One has to find their own view.

    It depends on your creativity and intelligence.

    You have the mags and Q morons who can see nothing really but will accept anything a trusted source tells them.

    For me, there is only one source, myself.

    As all views boil down to the same point, none is better or worse than another.

    Just batting the ball back over the net.

    My real feeling about OMF is that some intelligence types come here to communicate and I like to stick my finger in their eye 👁️ from time to time.

    We must keep ourselves amused.

    If things are gonna fall apart, none of us is really prepared for it.

    What do they say, anything that can go wrong, will go wrong.

    That depends on one’s view.

    One wrong may be a big right.

    It would be inconvenient, but I wouldn’t mind if the whole system of authority collapsed.

    Granted you may end up with roving bands of cannibals.

    I’d say our current system is better than that.

    So let’s all give it a little love at least.

    We don’t want it all to burn down really.

    The right wingers want others to believe as they do and stop sticking progressive ideas down their throat.

    That’s fair, but shortsighted.

    To believe Armageddon is coming and to try to force it is a real problem.

    Those kinds of muppets are trying to spoil the game.

    I do not like those folks at all.

    The left wingers at least are trying to improve things.

    It’s quite a pickle we have ourselves in.

    The common moron needs some kind of religion and decent wage to keep them calm and unbarbaric and consuming.

    Why the elites want to piss them off is beyond me.

    Keep ‘em fat and happy and quiet I say.

    Globalism could be done a lot better to be sure.

    Some empathy on all sides would go a long way.

    It’s a classic strategy for the religious to accuse their enemies of being baby eaters to rile the stupid up.

    Empathy is the only way really to maintain some modicum of stability.

    The sides have to have some respect for each other.

    But then again, with all the sides at war; the devious can steal them blind.

    🐐

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    Post by dan Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:20 pm

    ……. everything that happens has to be natural, ultimately…….?

    Well, is the Metanarrative natural?

    The Metanarrative is the only thing that can happen.  

    The BPW/SW is the only thing that can exist.  

    Nothing else is possible……. whether natural or unnatural.  

    If we define Nature as being everything, then everything is natural, by definition.  

    Clearly, Chivo believes that intelligence is natural.  

    In that case, nature is essentially intentional.  

    One might also say that nature is normative.

    Is there any significant distance between Nature and cosmic consciousness?  

    The only thing is that in giving consciousness an inch, it is liable to take over the neighborhood, unless you are a card carrying Cartesian.

    Certainly, no other ontology is going to defend itself.  

    Is there any call to make a case for any sort of ontology?

    Are there any strictures against doing so?

    The only stricture against personalism is that it necessarily entails the Eschaton.  

    Within postmodernism, there is a barely articulated bias against any sort of Metanarrative.  

    Any such narrative is liable to trespass on someone…… on someone’s right to maintain a stance of unchallenged acosmism……. of agnosticism.  

    Is this a natural right?  

    If that is the case, then the violation of that right would be unnatural…… it would be paranormal…….?  

    Well, proselytizing might be considered a form of predation.  

    Is predation unnatural?  

    I believe that Chivo and chick both believe in the ultimate efficacy of love.  

    We might even agree that not believing in love is a sin.  

    So much for agnosticism.  

    Is it unfair for someone to point out that love comes with entanglements?  

    chick merely points out that love is the nexus of all entanglement……. it is the Alpha and Omega of all entanglement.  

    Love is the ultimate in ontological commitments.

    Now, chick could be mistaken, but I believe that it has just been demonstrated that agnosticism about the cosmic efficacy of love is the ultimate sin.  

    Furthermore, that not recognizing that rationality is essential to love is being equally sinful.  

    Is it therefore a sin to not ascribe to the BPWH?

    Is it possible, in good conscience, to ignore the BPWH?  

    Am I haranguing anyone about any of this?

    Would it be possible for me not to do so, in good conscience?  

    Is it possible for anyone not to do so, and still remain in good faith?  

    I don’t think so.  

    But then what does chick 🐣 know?  

    Unless it can be demonstrated that love is ineffectual, beyond reasonable doubt, then everyone is obliged to be leaning out for love…… and to be leaning that way forever.  

    Just go ahead and tell chick 🐣 that he is wrong 😑.  

    I dare you……. no, I double dare you!!
    ……………


    Thus although my principal aim is to show that the Enlightenment, in seeking a cure for civilization’s ills, only succeeded in making them worse…….
    This is a quote from a book being recommended by Sam H…….. Requiem for Modern Politics: The Tragedy of the Enlightenment and the Challenge of the New Millennium

    Does this book really spell the death knell of liberal politics?  

    If so, I have to agree.  

    By a similar token, I may have to agree with foot 🦶 that Catholics and only Catholics are presently not on the road to perdition.  

    This is something of a technicality, but an important technicality, nonetheless, which I intend to expand upon, soon.



    (cont…….)

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    Post by Post Eschaton Punk Tue Sep 13, 2022 10:59 pm

    I don’t believe anything really Dan.

    I am blissfully free of idealism and belief.

    I only know my experience.

    So to me, there is only nature.

    I did not occur outside of nature.

    I don’t mean the watered down modern view of nature.

    I mean NATURE, mysterium tremendum et fascinans.

    Metanarrative smarative.

    I don’t worry about or think about cosmic consciousness anymore.

    I’ve boiled things down to the very simplest.

    I note the thoughts of others, but they ain’t livin my short life.

    I don’t let their infected minds infect my own with their mind viruses.

    What happened before or after this short sojourn on this blue marble isn’t my concern.

    I’ll agree with you on love.

    It makes this work.

    Still, I am weirdly fortunate and lucky.

    I also work hard at anything I do.

    Things work out usually better than I could have guessed.

    There is synchronicity.

    I can’t complain.

    If I get some horrible cancer, I won’t complain then either.

    I have accepted this life for what it is and my death.

    All I have will be taken back.

    There are signs that there is something outside my awareness influencing my life.

    Am I just the in game avatar, perhaps.

    Not my concern.

    Dan has many thoughts.

    If I were him, I’d keep things simple and enjoy his short time left on earth.

    Thinking is not enjoyable for the smelly 🐐 per se.

    He can think as good as any muppet and better than most.

    He likes being kind and living with empathy.

    But I have been to the mystical center of myself and have lived to tell the tale.

    So I guess I kinda cheated my way to peace.

    No prophecies really or great meaning.

    It’s all meaningful.

    It’s all incredible.

    This life to me is a wonder and I live it now like a child.

    Maybe I won the game.

    Nature has been kind to me.

    But that could change in an instant, in a crack of lightening.

    Living in a world like this is not for wimps.

    But I will not give away my mind to the beliefs and fears of others.

    Never again.

    I live with no net.

    I’m in free fall and one day, I will hit the ground and that’s it.

    I don’t curse or beg a god.

    I have been given what I need and I use it to its best.

    This is my act of worship to any beyond me watching.

    My act of gratefulness is to live this life well and be the best I can be.

    That’s it.

    Simple.


    Last edited by Smelly El Chivo on Tue Sep 13, 2022 11:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by 99 Tue Sep 13, 2022 11:04 pm

    Dan wrote:By a similar token, I may have to agree with foot 🦶 that Catholics and only Catholics are presently not on the road to perdition.

    That's nice to know and I agree! Laughing
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    Post by Post Eschaton Punk Tue Sep 13, 2022 11:09 pm

    99 wrote:
    Dan wrote:By a similar token, I may have to agree with foot 🦶 that Catholics and only Catholics are presently not on the road to perdition.

    That's nice to know and I agree! Laughing

    To me, what y’all have said above and agreed to is the epitome of delusion.

    It’s absolute nonsense to me.

    Shrug.

    I see no signs of wisdom in left 🦶 saying such things.

    You should know better Dan.

    How much do you know someone didn’t tell you or that you read in a book Dan?

    I think one should consider anything beyond their experience just a story.

    We make a story of our experience when trying to relay it to another.

    Stories have their place.

    But muppets have lost the ability to keep stories at bay.

    We have been flooded by our stories.

    Clearing them all out is the best thing one can do.

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    Post by 99 Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:40 am

    In truth, we honestly don't believe that we are the only ones who are chosen by God to walk through the gates of heaven.

    In short, there are many exceptions to all of that...  

    a back door, shall we say, that's there for non-Catholics to enter it too.

    But as for myself, I chose to be able to go through the front gate hence one of many other reasons why I remain a Catholic.

    Why settle for second best when one is born into the absolute best?

    And I mean that from the bottom of my heart.
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    Post by 99 Wed Sep 14, 2022 6:06 am

    "And He took the bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body, given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 20 In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you.…"

    Transubstantiation is, "the change of the whole substance of bread into the substance of the Body of Christ and of the whole substance of wine into the substance of the Blood of Christ"

    We do this every Sunday.
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    Post by dan Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:55 am

    foot recalls that, in a conversation with Robert Hickson, several years ago, I made the claim that the fault of modernity started with the Reformation.

    The Reformation is dated to 1517 with Luther in Wittenberg.  

    The Enlightenment is dated to 1637 with Descartes’ ‘Cogito’.  

    I recall no such claim about the Reformation; however, I do not dispute foot’s recollection of the event. Robert and I were sharing at least one bottle of wine.



    (cont………..)
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    Post by Cheguevoblin Wed Sep 14, 2022 12:47 pm

    Catholics have no special information, authority, power, truth, access, front gate, or anything else for that matter

    Alone with the alone naked in the desert is where all of us wander

    Religion is a mirage

    The water bottle is already in your hand

    You can’t see or use it when your distracted chasing mirages

    The Catholic Church is the church of the Demiurge

    If anything, the gnostics were much closer to reality before the literalism disease took hold and spread



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    Post by dan Wed Sep 14, 2022 1:26 pm

    (By my recollection, Ackbar (Aleph) is Aaron K.)

    Yes, it would, of course, be simple just to forswear religion.  

    It is something that we might consider taking upon ourselves.  

    My principle reservation against this course has to do with both personalism and the Metanarrative.  

    I have not yet stated that personalism necessarily entails a Metanarrative.  

    I believe that personalism entails a minimum of historical coherence.

    I have stated that there is a reason for everything……. on some level.

    The combination of these ideas indicates a strong correlation between personalism and a Metanarrative.  

    Buddhism eschews personalism and a narrative.  

    It accommodates many who have forsworn other traditions.  

    Xianity often is able to foster a strong form of interpersonalism.  

    But, yes, it does seem that the Reformation was the inevitable precursor to the Enlightenment.  

    And, yes, the Enlightenment may be viewed as the precursor to scientific materialism.  

    That may have been our largest excursion from the Truth.  

    May it then be viewed as a mistake?  

    Not under the rubric of the best possible world.  

    Nor am I suggesting a reprise for Catholicism, even though it may be seen in retrospect as having been the nearest to the interpersonal Truth.



    (cont……….)

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    Post by Cheguevoblin Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:06 pm

    Very well

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    Post by Post Eschaton Punk Wed Sep 14, 2022 6:56 pm

    99 wrote:In truth, we honestly don't believe that we are the only ones who are chosen by God to walk through the gates of heaven.

    In short, there are many exceptions to all of that...  

    a back door, shall we say, that's there for non-Catholics to enter it too.

    But as for myself, I chose to be able to go through the front gate hence one of many other reasons why I remain a Catholic.

    Why settle for second best when one is born into the absolute best?

    And I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

    Oh?

    How kind of y’all to leave a back door.

    Ha!

    What I say or believe does not make me great, what I do does and most don’t see what I do but me, myself and I.

    In this we are our own judges.

    We are the angels and daemons and monsters, oh my.

    There is just something so distasteful believing one has earned heaven and others not like us won’t and only will be punished.

    I realized heaven and hell are both found in life.

    Right in the middle seems best to me.

    If I am given a choice as an aware being when I die, it won’t be heaven and hell, it will be to the source!

    Heaven and Hell are just maybe other dimensions of mind.

    The Taoists have a very practical view of this life and possible bigger stage of being I resonate with most.

    I left all that dualistic and materialist spirituality behind as muppet confusion, desire and arrogance.

    No offense.

    Heaven and Hell is a materialist view.

    To each his own.

    I’ll take my chances living my life at full volume with no take backs or excuses.

    My actions demand and call forth the best in others and vice versa, the courage of others calls forth my best, not beliefs or stories.

    It seems like the most honest way to face life imho.

    I’m always on and responsible and worshipping, not just on Sunday.


    Last edited by Smelly El Chivo on Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by Post Eschaton Punk Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:03 pm

    dan wrote:foot recalls that, in a conversation with Robert Hickson, several years ago, I made the claim that the fault of modernity started with the Reformation.

    The Reformation is dated to 1517 with Luther in Wittenberg.  

    The Enlightenment is dated to 1637 with Descartes’ ‘Cogito’.  

    I recall no such claim about the Reformation; however, I do not dispute foot’s recollection of the event.  Robert and I were sharing at least one bottle of wine.



    (cont………..)

    The fault of modernity was misunderstanding Jesus and making him God.

    It served a political purpose to do so.

    A noble lie.

    But a lie is a lie.

    If is not simpler to forswear religion!

    It is so much more visceral and real to face life head on not knowing and doing your best anyway, living with courage and increasing your own quality and taking full responsibility for your life!

    So your action is your immediate reward and punishment.

    Would nature have it any other way?

    No no.

    But only few realize this.

    I really do wish more had the courage to live life honestly and openly and nakedly.

    Oh man, I totally disagree with you there Dan.

    Simple?!

    Are you kidding?!

    The truth burns inside of you.

    No one or book or religion is needed beyond what is inherently within you in my experience.

    This is the oldest and truest religion.

    To face yourself is the beginning and end of wisdom and real life I have found.

    Until you have lived this, how could anyone know?

    I spread this gospel everywhere I go and it transcends all creeds.

    I have seen those who embrace this way transform and superpower their lives.

    Becoming master of their lives is incomparable.

    Those who have attempted and done it, know what I mean.

    We carry the knowledge of life within our beating breasts and we rise to life wherever we go.

    We do not shrink.

    We thrive!

    This I have partially realized and been shown was the purpose of my life.

    To live this and be a midwife, helping birth human beings.

    In the line of Heraclitus and Plato and many others.

    Those who saw ahead of the crowd who called forth the greatness in us.

    No religion could compare to the experience of the true sun inside us, positive and negative.

    Anyhoo.

    Jesus gave one clear bit of wisdom, love nature and others like yourself, for all is you.

    I am and was a Jesus lover, as a friend, as myself, not as my god and idol.

    I have heard him and joined with him and done greater and I think done one better than any believer.

    Are the religious practicing this today?

    Nope, they are a million miles away from love all as yourself, which is in their own book!

    I think they hate themselves and nature.

    I think the religious actually hate god.

    It breaks my heart that 2000 years has led to our present confusion.

    But then this is all just a great setup for love.

    All who claim it finished, will be very surprised I suspect.

    Conservatives want no change, but life is flux, we are constantly changing.

    I think the way of no change is based on fear.

    Stay flexible and flow with whatever happens.

    It was not written down and finished.

    Some humility and open mindedness maybe.

    I love being surprised by life.

    I was so arrogant and stupid for so long as a religious person.

    I can only speak for myself ultimately.

    What others do isn’t really my concern unless they try to hurt me.

    As long as they stay in their lane, who cares what muppets think and do?

    Still, like Diogenes, the hermit, I walk the earth with my inner lamp calling the dead back to life.

    No religion needed or wanted.

    Jesus said do better, so do it!



    What’s truly disturbing is how the conservative leadership stokes Christian fundamentalist aggrievement to get elected and divide the country. They use the irrational to push monetary based agendas.

    The fundamentalist muppet has been weaponized.

    And if you throw in End Times fundamentalism, oh boy, you have looney tunes.

    Until we can move beyond religious fundamentalism and its weaponization against the climate and rational policies, we are fooked.

    To say anything is daimonic is fundamentalism.

    What is ironic is that all of us are partly daimonic.

    The fundamentalist hates this part of themselves.

    Anyone pushing heaven, hates the dark inside themselves.

    You can’t just accept half the picture.

    It’s all or nothing.

    I’m writing a book now, a memoir, addressing my own awakening from evangelical fundamentalism and the horrible division it is causing and how it is deliberately being weaponized.

    This is why the conservatives embrace the working class and fight against self education.

    They want them angry and uneducated.

    I’d argue this ties into the UFO mythology too, which is a new religion, with its own fundamentalists.

    Sorry muppets, but we are unifying here, not splintering.

    Fight it all you like.

    You are not the winners, far from it, as long as you hate the other.

    Is Dan a fundamentalist?

    If it walks like a chicken 🐔 and squawks like a chicken…

    The rich and smart are diverse and inclusive, but they keep the lower classes confused and muddled.

    Poor muppets, they really never had much of a chance unless they had an intelligent brain and fierce heart.

    Alas, most have neither, some have one of those, few have both.

    Evolution at work, selecting for what?

    Nietzsche knew.

    Jung knew.
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    Post by Post Eschaton Punk Thu Sep 15, 2022 1:38 am

    Perhaps Dan will indulge me one last post in my series of 3, the power of 3 is something.

    He’s gonna like this post.

    I’m going to talk about the Apocalypse, but not as the literalists do, they don’t know.

    “Apocalypse” comes from Greek, the original language of the Book of Revelation. It means “uncover, disclose, reveal.” In late 14th century Church Latin, it became “revelation.” In Middle English, its general sense was “insight” or “vision.” Its usage as “a cataclysmic event” is modern.

    Moderns are lunkheads.

    If you read OMF correctly, it is like a Tarot deck, it really is.

    I’ve used it for years.

    When Dan mentioned Hegel, it was a synchronicity for me.

    Dan loves Hegel because he said history was at an end.

    The soul is exhausted.

    I don’t agree exactly.

    It’s just changing.

    Everything changes that we can know.

    Hegel didn’t think there could be any further growth or development from his time on, there would be a contraction.

    I agree there.

    Hegel became maybe the first non-dual modern western philosopher, but I would say Heraclitus and his time started western philosophy from a non-dual perspective, it was just warped by Christianity.

    This is why most moderns can’t make heads or tails really of the pre-socratics.

    Hegel was not non-dual like Buddhism.

    He achieved Neti Neti, thesis and negation, negation of the ego, “not this, not that.”

    Taoism says doing not doing, wei wu wei.

    This is how you get around ego.

    This is how psychedelics work.

    This is why we had the beats and the hippies.

    Hegel saw the world was paradoxical, but the egoic mind sees this as self contradiction.

    You have to use contradiction to unify what doesn’t make sense to the ego.

    This is the unfortunate state of conservatives.

    They are hopelessly lost in their duality.

    Well, nothing is really hopeless.

    But they won’t give up their guns until you take them from their dead hands.

    That’s actually good.

    Because I’m talking about god as death.

    They are half right.

    How can nirvana be samsara, doesn’t make sense to the modern mind.

    I’ve spent the last 10 years baptizing myself in contradiction.

    I’ve become quite comfortable and adept with it.

    That’s really the only out you have.

    People like scarz and GSB have no idea what I mean.

    Maybe Dan does or maybe not.

    Shrug.

    Death is life.

    This is how you hear what Jesus really meant.

    To live, you must die and be born again.

    He demonstrated this to the lunkheads, but they are blinded to it.

    We are dead and alive simultaneously at this very moment.

    Think about that long enough and your brain will shut off.

    That’s a great outcome.

    Because the ego is dead to the soul.

    Those are abstractions for very complex processes.

    You only glimpse the soul in the egos negation or sunset.

    Fundamentalist religion is a religion of the ego.

    It would sooner destroy the earth than be negated.

    The Dark Night of the Soul shows the ego, it never really had any life.

    God I remember that night, it was one night for me.

    It was a literal journey through fire 🔥 and into death.

    The ego lacks real being.

    The ego realizes it’s already dead because it was never born.

    It was a mask you put on.

    That dark death is deathlessness though.

    This is what Jesus I think meant.

    When this happens, bam 💥 the Absolute just appears!

    It is always here, but you were masking it.

    So the ego is not really destroyed, it’s reabsorbed, or integrated into a whole.

    This is moving from hell to heaven you could say.

    I’d say Eden, psychologically at least.

    This is what Eden has always been, psychological.

    Any good Rabbi would say the same.

    They laugh at the Christian.

    The lunkheads made it literal.

    Being alive and dead is quite a feat, but what a revelation.

    It’s balancing on the head of a pin.

    This is what is revealed by Apocalypse.

    Everything at once, just clicks!

    The key is turned.

    The door 🚪 is opened.

    You want to open this door.

    This is the portal.

    This is the pearl.

    Your life does change from being grounded in fear to security.

    It’s a beautiful event and time in a life.

    A wondrous, and at times, painful experience.

    There is a massive influx of information the ego had been blocking.

    For the world will spit you out.

    Freedom from anxiety is a sign.

    A cessation of conspiracy obsession is the proof of it.

    Conspiracy theorists are really fearing what is behind every conspiracy, the reality of being alive and dead at the same time.

    They are terrified, who is, the ghost is, the mirage.

    U is a living mirage, a good case study.

    He has no real substance.

    But this state allows spontaneous action.

    This is the great secret of the Taoists and martial arts.

    Fear and desire united.

    BOOM 🤯

    Hegel achieved this philosophically.

    He points the mind to non-duality.

    Heidegger was a nihilist and atheist most of his life, but he became a Taoist.

    He saw the problem of the post-modern ego very very well and spoke a lot about this existential shipwreck we are thrust into.

    He saw we would become enslaved by technology to fill this void.

    At the end of his life, he said only a god can save us.

    Hegel say there was a confection coming.

    He saw the lower death drive would trigger the higher death drive.

    Die to be born again.

    I’m not saying I agree completely with any of this, I experienced this higher death, or reintegration.

    I can’t deny that.

    Then I knew what Jesus meant.

    I had thought I was born again, but I had not even begun to crack myself open.

    This is the death of death.

    Another way to see what we are going through now collectively.

    They will try to destroy it all to justify their egoic desire for heaven.

    Let’s hope the destruction is limited.

    But if one has done as Jesus pointed to, it doesn’t matter really what happens to them.

    You can’t kill the “All Always.”

    Only the ghosts will be dissolved.

    They created a false idol.

    Humans can’t seem to help creating idols.

    Enter Owen Barfield.

    The first and last Inkling.

    People show up to talk to Dan, but really, they should be talking to themselves.

    I did.

    But I was just comparing Dan to what I was telling myself.

    I was negating myself.

    The Inkling’s project revolved around the relation and tension between rationality and imagination. The Inkling’s were reacting against the hyper-rationality in England in their time, as exemplified through World War I and II, and taking cues from the Romantics to argue for the value of imagination. However, the argument was never for imagination instead of rationality, but the inter-relational dance between both rational faculties and imaginative faculties as two avenues in pursuit of truth.

    In Saving the Appearances, Barfield argues consciousness has evolved along with the evolution of physical phenomena. Barfield says, “I do not perceive any thing with my sense-organs alone, but with a great part of my whole human being.” Representation then requires an embodied being situated in a context, and the context is a pre-requisite for transforming the unrepresented into the represented. If the other humans corroborating a collective representation are different in some way — Barfield points to myopia, dullness, or insanity — the representation of the intelligent individual may become the collective representation. He also claims the presumed intelligent, fully-abled human can determine a representation to be collective without the support of others through experience.

    Now pay attention.

    Much of what we take as reality actually consists of representations that are handed to us by those in power. They are not in fact collectively created, only collectively received. While we all receive collective representations as a consequence of growing up, learning to question or critically choose the collective representations is a hard-won skill and often relegated to those labeled academics, visionaries, or revolutionaries.

    Your freedom must be won.

    Collective representation, as he explains it, leads to Barfield’s articulation of participation, a term he borrows from philosopher Lucien Lévy-Bruhl and sociologist Émile Durkheim. He traces the arc of Western consciousness over the past 3000 years as a move from original participation into idolization and, hopefully, into final participation. But participation is often operating without our conscious input, and he claims, “it is characteristic of our phenomena…that our participation in them, and therefore also their representational nature, is excluded from our immediate awareness.” This is true for all participation except final participation, which by definition requires consciously engaging our representations.

    Barfield further explains, “a representation, which is collectively mistaken for an ultimate — ought not to be called a representation. It is an idol. Thus the phenomena themselves are idols, when they are imagined as enjoying that independence of human perception which can in fact only pertain to the unrepresented.” In creating idols, we build objects which have their own independent existence and relate to us as humans in a very particular way which is completely constrained by our representation of them as objects. In our representations as idols, we cut ourselves off from participation because we set up phenomena as other than ourselves.

    The antidote to idolatry is what Barfield calls final participation — what Gebser would call integral consciousness. Final participation requires a conscious experience of our participation with phenomena to point towards truth.

    Revolutionaries must become creators.

    I do think we are experiencing this shift.

    It was the collective that woke me up and freed me from the manufactured reality.

    We can’t go back, straight on into final conscious participation with the collective.
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    Post by dan Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:33 am

    Chivo is a bit of a fuss budget, but he’s not a whiner…… he’s not a complainer.  

    He seems to realize that humanity might be on to something……. that we humans and our world might be redeemable……. each after our own fashion.  

    Even if we are inveterate complainers, we wouldn’t be complaining unless we thought that our pet peeve might be fixed.  

    Now I’ll admit that some of us do get a bit carried away in thinking that…….. gee, wouldn’t the world be great if we could just get rid of all the……bad guys…… or get rid of all this, that or the other thing.  

    Hey, we can always imagine a more perfect Union….. maybe even a more beautiful sunset……. or less of a flood in Pakistan…….. or less bombing in the Ukraine.  

    But then again, if there were nothing left to fix, we might think we were already in Heaven, or already one with the One.  

    Sometimes that’s what Chivo seems to be thinking, and there’s nothing wrong with that.  

    But……. about that fixing……… maybe we need a fixer upper.

    Well, I don’t happen to believe that.  

    All we need is to be empowered to use our best possible interpersonal potential.  

    Of course, it might take some sort of god to empower us.  

    But what about the atheists, though?  

    We wouldn’t want to ruffle their feathers 🪶, would we?  

    What about the scientific materialists…….. or even the non-scientific kind……… what about their feathers 🪶?  

    How can we possibly please everyone?  

    I guess there’s only one way we’re gonna fix the world 🌎…….

    We can do it as long as we realize that we only have an audience of one.  

    Or look at it the other way…….. if the world is fixable, then that means that there is an audience of one…… of One.

    Oh, dear, now we’re starting to ruffle the feathers 🪶 of the individualists.  

    Who decides who’s the One?  

    Well, if it’s ever gonna be decided, I suspect it already has been…… sub specie aeternitatis, of course.  

    Or, in other words, we’re all just chips off the old Block.  

    We all just nominate our highest Angel 😇 to be the One.  

    And, if it all works out, we’ll end up with just a small family of angels……. a family that’s not too dysfunctional, hopefully 🙏.  

    Some might call it a trinity, but they’re probably biased.  

    So that wasn’t so bad was it?

    Heck, I’ve had worse times at the dentist 🦷, bless their hearts ♥.



    (cont……….)
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    Post by 99 Fri Sep 16, 2022 6:10 pm

    Personalism 101  - Page 14 Rfb43c27e19435061866311817a88aab8

    Post Eschaton Punk and U like this post

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    Post by Post Eschaton Punk Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:26 pm

    Kindness costs you nothing.

    Be kind to yourself first.

    Death is love.

    fuss budget?

    That’s a new one for me.

    Fusses over trifles.

    Haha, perhaps.

    But not really.

    Yes Dan, I am onto something.

    Something big, really big.

    Many are insane and lost as Barfield saw.

    Forgive me Father and Mother.

    For so long I was proud and stubborn and I was wrong.

    And I heard back…

    Remember your mistakes.

    Hear my voice.

    Forever, I am with you my son.

    Even in anger, most in anger.

    There is nothing to forgive.


    Last edited by Smelly El Chivo on Sat Sep 17, 2022 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by Post Eschaton Punk Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:15 am

    My words can only be abstractions, but let’s get to the heart of it.

    What are we?

    What is freedom?

    The Christian Vedantic gospel is meant to discover and know, not just in our minds, but as we live our lives in the felt sense of attitude, awareness and stance in the world, that we are gods and the kingdom is within us.

    Human beings are at heart consciously awakening to the infinite and were made by the infinite to know this.

    We are nothing but creative gods coming to be.

    Becoming god in god, able to become divine only because in some sense we are divine from the very first.

    We are here to know this.

    Consider this deeply.

    Take the weekend.

    This is a striking way of putting things, but the mystics have long said this.

    My eye is one eye and one knowing.

    The eye that sees god, is god’s eye seeing me.

    See Meister Eckart.  

    This is good news and appealing and easy to get wrong.

    Is this right for our time?

    What can this possibly mean?

    The great invitation is to let go and discover that which is within us.

    This is the essence of final participation.

    What happened in the dark, now comes into the light of consciousness.

    This comes from John 10, you are gods.

    Is it blasphemy then to say I am the son of god?

    In Luke 17, the kingdom of god is within.

    Not our there.

    So why are all these religious folks so blind to this, looking ‘out there?’

    Gen 2:7, the spirt was breathed directly into us.

    His ground is my ground and my ground is his.

    Sufism talks about journeying, just so we can know more where god is.

    This has been lost in the West after the Reformation.

    Nature does not need grace.

    This is an errant two tier understanding of nature.

    The divide is wrong.

    Knowledge of god is our natural goal.

    Blake says we want the All.

    Our hearts are restless until this realization.

    The natural is already supernatural.

    The humanists would have us believe there is quantity with no quality.

    But the only reason we can count is because of our quality.

    We are here to knowingly participate with nature.

    Quality is not emergent.

    We flow from participate with the single source.

    The veil is to see this wrongly.

    We will know even as we are known.

    This is the heart of Christian mysticism.

    Sat chit ananda.

    It is bliss knowing what you are.

    We can receive the world through participation, not just representation.

    This is the essence of non-duality.

    The supernatural gives birth to the natural from a dualistic perspective.

    The desire to know and understand is the primary power of wonder alive in us.

    It is love that shapes us.

    We want so much to relate to this.

    We yearn for that which is beyond appearances.

    We can participate with reality and the more we do, the more that shows up.

    We realize what is already there.

    It is what science radiates that the greatest scientists reflect.

    Beauty should be your clue, we don’t end.

    We have made the finite an end.

    This is driving us insane.

    Christianity will become non-dual, it must, because it is.

    I had to leave Christianity to realize it.

    God is all in all.

    The Logos in creation is the same Logos in God.

    This is theophany.

    Being creative, is being deified.

    Owen Barfield saw this.

    This is a play between the visible and invisible.

    We are the temporal stage.

    Our strength is our diversity and embracing of it.

    Some of my words summarize some of this dude’s writing in his book, “You are Gods.”

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bentley_Hart

    Eschatology is crucial to his vision.

    Eschatology is our final cause and why we exist.

    It points to our destiny.

    Ok ok, I’ll lay off Dan.

    I can kind of support his project.

    I think, only now, do I begin to appreciate eschatology.

    We can only become what we are.

    David has helped me understand Dan.

    He is one of the Christian theologians I can listen to and read.

    In my view, he sees who Jesus really was and he holds the true faith that will remain present and break forth when the conditions are ready.

    His enlightenment is obvious, because it is universal, he bridges east and west, which is the only way really.

    The modern Christian is terrified of nonduality.

    I can meet Christians like this as brothers and sisters.

    These are humans a wise person will seek out, not conspiracy and apocalypse nuts and partisans or fundamentalists.

    Fundamentalism is a death gasp.

    Of course he is a social democrat, a true nondual Christian has no choice but to be a social democrat.

    We thirst and hunger for this quality.

    And when we see it in others, it is astonishing.

    Mark Vernon is another I deeply commune with, I share his love of William Blake.

    Divine beauty.





    Finally, a man after my own heart.

    A true transcendentalist.

    A unique genius.

    I generally have walked the path from west to east he speaks of so much better than I or Dan could.

    Most Christians today have no way to approach this universal view of truth.

    The fundamentalists and Nationalists are not Christian, they are an Orphic cult trying to fill a void.

    Q and Trump and maybe left 🦶 are prophets of this cult.

    The UFO phenomena imo is being co-opted to push this cult.

    Is Dan a prophet of the cult?

    He may stay close to it, but I do not think so.

    The smell of the cult on Dan is putrid in my nose at times.

    But smelly 🐐 is maybe more with Dan than not.

    Perhaps I showed up to help pull Dan back from the brink of going all in with the cultists.

    The cultists have already failed.

    They are in their death roll.

    Best to keep your distance.

    Watch them twist and spin.

    It’s hard to admit and wake up to the reality you have been fooled and are on bad ground.

    The more they claim absolute authority, the more they will devolve.

    A shame, but understandable given the breakdown of the Bicameral mind.

    We live in a confused fallen world.

    One who does not know pagan history, the enlightenment, modernism and postmodernism cannot appreciate the breakdown we find ourselves in the midst of.

    One needs the perspective of history to properly situate themselves and know the value and beauty of real quality.

    I highly recommend his new book, Tradition and Apocalypse: An Essay on the Future of Christian Belief, https://a.co/d/ebDDEzL

    A true clear vision and voice so above and beyond the lunatics of our age.

    This is the Logos speaking out loud.

    Only a fool would pass this kind of quality up.

    One of the best series of talks from Closer To Truth imho.



    Gos is infinitely personal, much more so than we are. The empirical ego as the foundation of personhood is inadequate.





    I will say that I have encountered something astounding and Supra-sensible as David describes.

    It is true it can’t be explained to another.

    It is the next step if you open yourself to love.

    For you will embody love and this will reveal something to you beyond conceptual description.

    That is the source of my own hope.

    I didn’t expect this.

    But I did seek and cry out for connection.

    I had to move and act.

    One must embody love to know the intimacy of love.

    I make no claims per se then about the future.

    I am experiencing love on a profound level and every aspect of my life reflects this.

    So what could one say?

    Keep going.

    Don’t give up.

    Put your whole self into the search.

    Be willing to let all your sacred beliefs go.

    When you are at your end, go beyond yourself.

    To say it in a corny way, give love a chance at your lowest.

    That’s all I can really say I know about God.
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    Post by Post Eschaton Punk Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:35 pm

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    Post by dan Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:48 pm

    Chivo,

    Thanks for the reference to Bentley.  

    I’m still working on Tradition and Apocalypse.

    I also recommend it.  

    Another topic that has come up is Fideism.  It covers a lot of territory.

    The BPWH would say that we will have just the best possible amount of faith.  

    Love does require the best possible amount faith….. perhaps even unto Eternity.  

    I’ll be out of the country soon for a few weeks.

    I’ll be attempting to keep in touch.  
    ………..


    Much of the rationality comes from realizing that there is no reasonable alternative.

    The only real alternate is Nihilism.

    If you wish to be a Nihilist, be our guest, and you’ll be guaranteed to not be disappointed…….. well, unless it’s just Hell……. which is worse than nothing.

    I suppose it’s possible…….. that God is a misanthrope.


    .


    Last edited by dan on Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post by Foot Mann Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:37 pm

    The Chicken and the Turkey. Only one of them eats Jerky. They play all day, one runs away, and the Chicken eats the Jerky. Next day the Chicken greets the Turkey. Why do you not eat the Jerky? The World is Small, the Turkey is Tall, and the Jerky is from Armenia.

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