Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

From: Dan Smith 
Date: February 9, 2013 2:03:53 PM EST
To: Michael Kavanaugh 

Subject: Messy Antics

Mike,

Here is my position wrt the human crisis......

I am wont to play the Messiah card, for lack of anything better to do, at this late hour.

I have been playing this card for the past 35 years, and actually I know of no one better able to play this card, at this time.  If there is someone who is better able, then this is one way to bring them out of their closet.  OTOH, I will not roll over and play dead, when the first alternate is willing to speak up.  

What do I bring to these messy antics.....?  

Experience and a unique vision...... Yes, 35 years of pretending to be a messiah.  My vision is that we are the Co-Creators of the best possible world, we being the partners with the Creator.  

My vision is that we are very much overdue for a paradigm shift....... away from scientific materialism.  Post-modernism was a move in this direction.  I am suggesting a form of anti-materialism....... immaterialism.  This is also what I call the Best Possible World - Hypothesis (BPWH).  

According to the BPWH, reality is more like a great thought than a great machine.  And, along with the Creator, you and I are the co-Thinkers.  

And, furthermore, with the depletion of our resources, and with the fullness of our scientific endeavor, we are ready to awaken to our cosmic mission, which is to be our Apocatastasis..... our At-one-ment.  

This is the vision that I have to offer.  
------------

Will you join me, Michael, in circulating this, as a kind of stop-gap effort, to make ours a cosmic case?  

Dan

dan wrote:Cy,

I had to go forward to the 90' mark, before TJ allowed you to talk......

Yeah I was an hour late as I was a bit mixed up on what time I was supposed to be there.

now about exopolitics.......

A think I made it through, most of the way. Toward the end here was a fair amount on space migration.

Most of the world is focused on the population issue and on expansion beyond Earth into space as a peaceful means of solving the problem without waging war on the portions of the population which are not equipped to defend themselves. The globalists discussed don't have that compunction. The majority of them see people like you and I as "useless eaters" and have every intention of "culling the herd" by either "soft-kill" methods or overt ones depending on which faction.

In the middle was a fair amount on terrestrial corruption and conspiracies.

Yes this is a huge part of the reason right now that system inhabitants are refusing to take risks. I wasn't kidding about the purges. You can find plenty of articles reporting about the purges online at this time.

In the beginning, though, there was quite a bit on the paranormal and magical knowledge of various kinds.

Paranormal and magical? I was not describing anything paranormal nor magical Dan. Look, I have been quite clear over my time here and briefly mentioned it on the first interview with TJ that the culture from which I draw is Old Irish. Old Irish is a surviving remnant of the last great technological age of this world. Same as the modern so called "illuminati" are also remnants. I use terminology that is different from modern science at times for very real things in this reality. Here for example:

Kenning: is the "knowing". It is the human access to the collective consciousness. Now here is the modern terms for it:

"each one of us have ALL of the wired-in capacities to be a literal All-One biomind network. A few years back, two Canadian scientists proposed a theory about something we have known for a long time: that the earth is actually a conduit for biocommunication between all human beings on earth, including ALL life forms on the planet.

Biocommunication is real, and occurs within the extremely low frequecy range (ELF) - from those starting at 3 Hertz(Hz) to those at the 120 Hz. What makes biocommunication possible? The earth (and other life bearing planets) maintain a life belt of electromagnetic fields that vibrate at a wide variety of spectra - from ELF to extremely high frequencies. Some naroww frequency ranges are resonant harmonic, with waves as long as the entire earth....LA Schumann Resonances LA, Alfven resonance.

And then Bri & Bau, again ancient terms for things we well know exist...Bau for example:

"corresponds to what we have determined to be the first antiMeissner resonant harmonic, or "second body" potential of the fundamental (Meissner field)." The energy Bri is the base out of which coherency patterns of Meissner fields rise. Coherency patterns such as the Meissner fundamental field are an "energetic bundling of idiomaterial processes".

You have been virtually on top of this information in your references to holonomic reality. But have not delved deep enough to see the correlations.



Most of the communication is through paranormal channels.

NO most of the communication is not through paranormal channels. The communication I'm discussing with TJ are people having conversations with people in real time. i.e. mediators having conversations with system inhabitants (governance, corporate, civilian advisors), and mediators having conversations with direct experiencers (contactees, abductees).

This is as exopolitical as you can get. It is about the evolution of understanding not only the dynamics of ET to Human interactions but also the dynamics of Human Reaction to human response involving those interactions.

There was also considerable contrast between collective and individual action toward the establishment of something else, but, of course, with a strong element of anti-globalism.

Again you are misunderstanding what was discussed. It is a common mistake whereas there is a huge difference between being "anti-corruption" vs "anti-globalism". I am not nor is TJ "anti-globalist". We are both "anti-corruption".

This spans back into history where part of the original purpose in the design of the then new nation United States of America was to be a TEMPLATE for a future positive non-corrupt GLOBAL GOVERNANCE which operated by the PEOPLE for the PEOPLE just as the example of the nation United States of America was designed to practice. This is what we were discussing that the current 'globalists' are not that positive non-corrupt envisioning and that they are building a TYRANNY to dismantle the positive track which lays under the US Constitution. The corruption is in favor of a power consolidated centralized control atop a feudal socialism which has the freedom to cull the herd at will in order to redesign life on this world.

The corruption does not see the correlation between the T-Boundary and our current high population which will enable the next planetary leap in civilization evolution and in Soul evolution. If the corruption succeeds in destroying the population the Human Race will lose this opportunity at holistic evolution. Back to square one just like what happened to the last great technological civilization on this planet some 8-10,000 years ago.

It is also anti-socialist, anti-oligarchical and anti-theocratic. Well, it's not clear what options that leaves us.

Dan, 99.8 % of the people on this planet would not agree to uplifting the .6 % to a utopia while committing the rest of the 99.8% to un-reconcilable oblivion. That is what this corrupt socialism, oligarchiacal, illumined theocracy intends to do.

What does the BPWH suggest? It suggests an eschatological Apocatastasis, whatever that may turn out to be. Otherwise, it is our descendants becoming our ancestors.

Dan, due to the level of technologies currently achieved on this world, the human race does not have an option toward 'devolution'. It must continue forward or this world will be un-conducive toward evolutionary civilization for MORE than 8-10,000 years. The current globalists are not seeing this concern. This is why so many of the ET groups are having conversations of this nature with contactees and why I continually harp on the Nature mankind is choosing and how it is expressed through collective human condition and activities or failure to participate in initiatives that would alter that other expression of Nature.

From: Dan Smith 
Date: February 9, 2013 2:03:53 PM EST
To: Michael Kavanaugh 

Subject: Messy Antics

Mike,

Here is my position wrt the human crisis......

I am wont to play the Messiah card, for lack of anything better to do, at this late hour.

I have been playing this card for the past 35 years, and actually I know of no one better able to play this card, at this time.  If there is someone who is better able, then this is one way to bring them out of their closet.  OTOH, I will not roll over and play dead, when the first alternate is willing to speak up.  

What do I bring to these messy antics.....?  

Experience and a unique vision...... Yes, 35 years of pretending to be a messiah.  My vision is that we are the Co-Creators of the best possible world, we being the partners with the Creator.  

My vision is that we are very much overdue for a paradigm shift....... away from scientific materialism.  Post-modernism was a move in this direction.  I am suggesting a form of anti-materialism....... immaterialism.  This is also what I call the Best Possible World - Hypothesis (BPWH).  

According to the BPWH, reality is more like a great thought than a great machine.  And, along with the Creator, you and I are the co-Thinkers.  

And, furthermore, with the depletion of our resources, and with the fullness of our scientific endeavor, we are ready to awaken to our cosmic mission, which is to be our Apocatastasis..... our At-one-ment.  

This is the vision that I have to offer.  
------------

Will you join me, Michael, in circulating this, as a kind of stop-gap effort, to make ours a cosmic case?  

Dan

.

From: Dan Smith 
Date: February 11, 2013 3:56:17 PM EST
To: Steven Salmony 
Cc: Sam, Michael, Paul, Gary 

Subject: Re: Eschatology 103......

(cont......) 

As far as I know, I'm the only one who is actively pursuing an alternative to a human die-back, of catastrophic proportions. 

And the main thing required of us is simply to awaken from our materialist slumber. Is this asking too much? Is there no one on your list, Steve, who would be willing to discuss this option with me. So far, Paul, Gary and Mike have declined. This is why I am suggesting that we bring this topic back to the larger list. 

Dan 

On Feb 11, 2013, at 3:38 PM, Dan Smith wrote:

I am working on my talking points for the BGF meeting....... http://www.baltimoregreenforum.org/

1.)  Western civilization, from Zoroaster to Marx, has been about eschatology and utopia.  

2.)  We now face an eco-eschaton, never envisaged, before Rachel Carson and Paul Ehrlich.

3.)  Environmentalists speak of sustainability, but they do not connect those dots.  They are in denial about the Overshoot...... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overshoot_(population)

4.)  IOW, the eschaton is upon us.  

Ok, here is where things begin to get strange.....

Strange......?  

Here is where Scientific Materialism fears to tread.  If anyone is to blame for our present human predicament, it is the scientists.  Should we so blame them?  I don't.  

I strongly believe that the scientists were only following their part of a cosmic plan, and that this plan is our best possible plan.  

If there is no plan, then do we not agree that you and I are toast..... that we are a cancer upon the Earth?  Otherwise, we are some kind of chrysalis.

So what......?  

If this were the case, then the main thing required of us is to awaken from our slumber of materialism.  

(cont......)

From: Dan Smith 
Date: February 11, 2013 4:27:21 PM EST
To: JACK SARFATTI 
Cc: gary, ron, ca, gk, lf, cp, etc.......

Subject: Re: Malachy remote views "The End"????

I suspect that Ron, in his very recent visit to the Vatican, was instrumental in this early retirement.  No?  


On Feb 11, 2013, at 4:09 PM, JACK SARFATTI wrote:

I don't have time to decode this. U R saying the Saint had a precognitive remote viewing I suppose?

On Feb 11, 2013, at 1:05 PM, Gary S Bekkum wrote:

According to the Prophecy of the Popes attributed to Malachy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Malachy

Saint Malachy (Middle Irish: Máel Máedóc Ua Morgair; Modern Irish:
Maelmhaedhoc Ó Morgair) (1094 – 2 November 1148) was an Irish saint
and Archbishop of Armagh, to whom were attributed several miracles and
a vision of the identity of the last 112 Popes (see Prophecy of the
Popes). He was the first Irish saint to be canonised by a pope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_the_Popes

With the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/12/world/europe/pope-benedict-xvi-says-he-will-retire.html

#111 Glory of the olive
Benedict XVI (2005–2013)
Joseph Ratzinger

Chose the regnal name Benedict after St Benedict of Nursia, founder of
the Benedictine Order. The order's crest contains an olive branch.

We are, more or less, at The End:

Petrus Romanus, qui paſcet oues in multis tribulationibus: quibus
tranſactis ciuitas ſepticollis diruetur, & Iudex tremẽdus iudicabit
populum ſuum.[66] Finis.


112 Peter the Roman, who will nourish the sheep in many tribulations;
when they are finished, the city of seven hills will be destroyed, and
the dreadful judge will judge his people. The end.

dan wrote:Cy,

Thank you for the link to A.R. Bordon.

I am presently reading his book, The Link, 2007, free online at..... http://www.scribd.com/doc/24012215/A-R-Bordon-THE-LINK-Chapters-1-9 .

I will get back to you, on this, as time permits. In the meantime, I would like to use this space as a repository of notes for the upcoming BGF talk.


2:15----------

I have read the introduction, and, unless you can convince me otherwise, I see no reason to read further.

There is a great deal of reason to read further. Dan you are insisting on residing in a self-limiting box. This is an invitation to explore the broader horizon. I will explain more below. Please do not cease reading.

It's all about the Annunaki. I think I already know more about them, than I really want to. But, my mind is still open, if you think I am missing anything of significance.

No it is not all about the Annunaki. Dan there is an entire range of species out there which include a spectrum that ranges from barely recognizable as our definition of life form up through ET versions and species that are on the brink of evolving from ET to UT and then past that to include those who have already evolved into what we would loosely define as UT and those who are on the verge or even in the process of what you are proposing we ourselves do in evolutionary leaps back to the Source. What he is describing if you read further are multiple species and racial groups interacting on a social and spiritual level.

As well read as you are on so many subjects if I were to evaluate your compilation of concept on how you are handling this invitation I would have to wonder if your compilation is built upon judging works solely by their cover. And by selective reasoning that excludes a universe of additional experience.

Yes, Cy, it's all about the ETH vs the UTH, and you and Jake still do not understand the significance of that distinction.

Again I would kindly disagree it is not at all about the ETH vs the UTH. The ETH AND UTH are part of the Source at its T-Boundary. Ultimate Causation. This is the terminology Bordon uses. He's tracking the mechanics of reality same as you are Dan and he's not overlooking either the material nor the immaterial aspects. His approach is holistic which is why I would think you'd be interested in his and his associates work.

It is all about our connection with God. You and Jake both come out of the Catholic/Priestly tradition. I, OTOH, am of the protestant tradition, where we do not allow ANYONE to come between us and our Maker........ not priests, not annunaki, and not AR Bordon.

Yes it is all about our connection with God. While Jake may or may not come out of the catholicism path, I do not Dan. Mine is ancient history which if you had read my post on the previous page and listened to the interviews rather than cherry picked your way through you would already know it. This is a post-apocalyptic civilization on the rebound Dan. We have been here before, and I have been where you wish to go and come home with a message in the bottle and a commitment to the success or failure of Earth's peoples. I am once again a part of the same revolution of lifetimes and the consequences of collective nature, choices, and outcomes everyone else is. I have a stake in the game once more; a dog in this hunt, you could say.

I have been trying to express you are not entirely off the beaten track but you are employing horse blinders and are only viewing the frontal manifestation of the Creator's life process where a 360 degree plus view is available and necessary.

Idiomaterial....it's only the internal engine.

How is it, Cy and Jake, that you cannot imagine, much less embrace, a direct link to the Creator?? I can only guess that you are sore afraid. Well, historically speaking, I am the comforter...... fear not.

You are missing the boat on our embrasure of the Creator and the direct link Dan. We are not oblivious, we're racing ahead of you on the mechanics of it. Please see the forest for the trees and catch up!

ET, UT, manifestation of thought as an expression of Soul, causal sui-genesis of all domains, and Ultimate Causation...its all part of the landscape of the Source.

Only the language used to explore and describe experience and comprehension varies.

------------


Please note that this is a two-part email, in reverse order......

From: Dan Smith 
Date: February 11, 2013 3:56:17 PM EST
To: Steven Salmony 
Cc: Sam, Michael, Paul, Gary 

Subject: Re: Eschatology 103......

(cont......) 

As far as I know, I'm the only one who is actively pursuing an alternative to a human die-back, of catastrophic proportions. 

And the main thing required of us is simply to awaken from our materialist slumber. Is this asking too much? Is there no one on your list, Steve, who would be willing to discuss this option with me. So far, Paul, Gary and Mike have declined. This is why I am suggesting that we bring this topic back to the larger list. 

Dan 

On Feb 11, 2013, at 3:38 PM, Dan Smith wrote:

I am working on my talking points for the BGF meeting....... http://www.baltimoregreenforum.org/

1.)  Western civilization, from Zoroaster to Marx, has been about eschatology and utopia.  

2.)  We now face an eco-eschaton, never envisaged, before Rachel Carson and Paul Ehrlich.

3.)  Environmentalists speak of sustainability, but they do not connect those dots.  They are in denial about the Overshoot...... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overshoot_(population)

4.)  IOW, the eschaton is upon us.  

Ok, here is where things begin to get strange.....

Strange......?  

Here is where Scientific Materialism fears to tread.  If anyone is to blame for our present human predicament, it is the scientists.  Should we so blame them?  I don't.  

I strongly believe that the scientists were only following their part of a cosmic plan, and that this plan is our best possible plan.  

If there is no plan, then do we not agree that you and I are toast..... that we are a cancer upon the Earth?  Otherwise, we are some kind of chrysalis.

So what......?  

If this were the case, then the main thing required of us is to awaken from our slumber of materialism.  

(cont......)

(cont.)

MD02 wrote:"Precognitive remote viewing" is trending, right?

Papal Prophecies - The End of Religion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=c8kCYk1LgSA

If: "I suspect that Ron, in his very recent visit to the Vatican, was instrumental in this early retirement. No?"

Logic would dictate a MUCH younger pope would be required in order to weather the impending storm?

~~~~

Offhand Gary
MKULTRA - @ 32min and beyond
Dr.Robert Duncan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18PtOXrzDVE

dan wrote:Cy,

Bordon is making cosmology look something like a dog's dinner, as the Brits might say.

I believe in Occam's razor, and in KISS.

Bordon puts us way down on the cosmic totem pole. Jesus put us right up at the top. Maybe Bordon is right and Jesus is wrong.

Bordon's cosmology is a great mishmash. I see no rationale to it. With Jesus there is an overriding rationale....... God loves us, and we are her co-creators, and no one, but no one, need come between us! What else do we need to know?

Bordon tells us that we are expendable insects in some sort of cosmic ant-hill or jungle. It is not a pretty picture, and I see no evidence for it. There is not one shred of evidence that places the ETH above the UTH.

If we have a direct path to God and Heaven, then why do we want to follow some very poorly specified path of endless transmigration? Consider Buddhism vs Hinduism....... it is the same difference. Nirvana is always at our doorstep, the Buddha told us. Let us not invent an endless parade of demi-gods to stand in our way, and clutter the path. This is a slave's mentality.

There are folks who are afraid to stand naked before their Maker, so they clothe themselves in the fictions of heavenly hosts, until, one day, the little boy comes along, and points to their nakedness.

The same may be said of the scientists who wrap our souls in endless fictions of atoms and quarks. One day, there will come a Chicken Little......

Jake Reason wrote:Well it's been a hectic week+ for me. I see there has been a number of new issues arise. Not only on your Blog here, Dan, but also with what looks like a resurfacing of T.C. Sienu? (aka: "The Clues") on TheOutPost Forum.

Hi Cyrellys, I still haven't had time to listen to your interview. Much to catch up.

Admin wrote:

Jake Reason wrote:Well it's been a hectic week+ for me. I see there has been a number of new issues arise. Not only on your Blog here, Dan, but also with what looks like a resurfacing of T.C. Sienu? (aka: "The Clues") on TheOutPost Forum.

Hi Cyrellys, I still haven't had time to listen to your interview. Much to catch up.

That's ok Jake, if you take Dan's word for it there's nothing worth hearing there anyway.

Jake Reason wrote:

Admin wrote:

Jake Reason wrote:Well it's been a hectic week+ for me. I see there has been a number of new issues arise. Not only on your Blog here, Dan, but also with what looks like a resurfacing of T.C. Sienu? (aka: "The Clues") on TheOutPost Forum.

Hi Cyrellys, I still haven't had time to listen to your interview. Much to catch up.

That's ok Jake, if you take Dan's word for it there's nothing worth hearing there anyway.

Haven't had time to read it all, yet Cy. In a quick scan, I see as usual, to side toward your favour.

Although I have issues with Bordon too.
And I once bought Niburu enough to hold it for awhile, but now think it best to sit on a self in a pawn shop.

However, I agree with you concerning the UT/ET hypothesis. Dan's UT hypothesis is as delusional to me as his Young Earth and Noah's Time Machine hypothesis.

I'll reply more when I have time to read your debate more fully.

From: Dan Smith 
Date: February 13, 2013 10:35:29 AM EST
To: Paul 
Cc: 53 others, on the Salmony list......

Subject: Re: Sustainability.... Threading the needle....

(cont.....) 


Would not most of us, along with most of humanity, agree that, despite all our ravages upon the Earth and upon each other, there are aspects of human culture, beauty and truth, if you will, that might possibly provide an apologetic for the emergence of us, naked apes.  

If you and I had never emerged from the tree of life, some Being from another universe, might have have noticed a cosmic Lacuna?  Nature without a mirror, if you will?  

Wonderful........ Mission accomplished!?  All ye, all ye, in free!  How do we bow out, gracefully?  

Hugging trees, until the Sun dies?  Spreading our ashes to the Stars? 


(cont......2). 



On Feb 13, 2013, at 10:13 AM, Dan Smith wrote:

Paul and Jack, et al., 

You are suggesting, Paul, that we go with the cosmic flow, accepting that we live in 'interesting' times.  Jack, however, is suggesting a heightened degree of human intentionality, bordering even upon the coercive, to steer ourselves, collectively, around the impending Typhoon.  

A global intentionality is difficult to envisage, from the standpoint of practicalities, pace China!  

Is there a logical path between Paul's Scylla and Jack's Charybdis?  

Paul is suggesting that there is a cosmic intentionality, or a vital force, that we should not attempt to redirect, particularly not at the expense of 'truncating' our essential humanity.  

Jack, however, suggests that a vital aspect of our humanity includes an impertive for species survival.  

Once again, Paul Gauguin comes to mind...... Who are we, from whence do we come, and whither do we go?  The answer to this question provides the answer to threading the cosmic needle, if you will.  

The force has been with us, all these aeons, and, now, just when things are getting 'interesting', at this existential crossroads, the Force leaves us twisting in the cosmic wind........ 


(cont........) 



On Feb 12, 2013, at 5:59 PM, Paul wrote:

Jack,

You would do all that to the world just to have a place you wouldn't mind living?  
Why should I agree that your world is a place I should want to live in? 
Or am I to simply agree to be coerced into agreement?
I didn't like that part of Hardin when I read him either.  Tragedy of the Commons yes, mutual coercion, not nearly so much.

I have nothing against the collapse of civilization.  I don't want to prevent it, I want to experience whatever it turns out to be.  I don't want to sterilize myself, either in body or emotion.  And I don't want to remove other peoples' choices.  It may not seem to you like that's what you're doing, or perhaps you feel that the game is worth the candle.  But from where I sit the potential for deep institutional evil inherent such a scheme far outpaces the possible misery of a collapse.

You may have the best of intentions, but your scheme does not meet the essential test of humanity.
I'm sorry to be harsh, Jack, but that's the way I see it.  I personally think the scheme is outrageous.

Paul

On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 4:54 PM, Jack Alpert wrote:
Paul,

1) the process would be everyone globally is made sterile and having a child would be a lottery win which would temporarily undo the sterility.  (see the numbers)

2) implementing the sterility and lottery is still governed by mutual coercion mutually agreed up -- Hardin

3) I hate coercion  too.   But I like my civilization which make it possible to drive down the street and not get killed.    I can understand the liability of the driving environment and accept the curtailments of my driving even though it takes away some of my freedom.  

The civilization collapse liabilities embedded in the human experiment are  harder to see and understand (currently now invisible) and the procreative limitations of a lottery to control numbers  seem like larger impositions that driving rules.    But this is all a matter of perception.  

You could have no driving rules and great road kill and keep going as a civilization.   While you cannot have have 7.5 billion people each doing what they feel like doing with family size,  without killing the whole experiment. 

Also see the URL above about building the constituency.   it looks impossible if this done top down but it looks difficult but possible bottom up. 

Gald to talk to you on the phone.  We could talk past each other for a long time in words. 

jack


Jack Alpert PhD
Director:  Stanford Knowledge Integration Laboratory
Shawnee, KS  66216

On Feb 13, 2013, at 11:35 AM, Dan Smith wrote:

Jack, 

I strongly suspect that Paul is the only one amongst the CoF who might object, in principle, to your vision of a mutual/consensual strategy of RPD...... 

Many more of us, however, are unable to envision the Archimedean fulcrum, from which you propose to move the world.  

Your most specific suggestion, TBMK, along these lines, has been to politically mobilize the grandmothers of the world.  And you do also point the the Abolitionist movement, but, if I recall, the Civil War intervened!  

Any other ideas.......?  


Dan 


On Feb 13, 2013, at 10:22 AM, Jack Alpert wrote:

Paul, and CoF

Let me answer both of Paul's emails in this one line by line (Paul in [>>]). 


>> Jack,

>> You would do all that to the world just to have a place you wouldn't mind living?
Why should I agree that your world is a place I should want to live in? 

The world that you want and the world that I want is not all that different in the end.

However,  I want to unwind some of the bad conditions (e.g. overpopulation)   sapient humankind made unintentionally.  After we repair this possibly catastrophic miss step, I don't see our wanted world being all that different.  No one wants interference, but at this point its interference or collapse or even end of the human experiment.

>> Or am I to simply agree to be coerced into agreement?

You may not agree to be coerced into agreement.  You might be in the other three billion that is dragged into RPD by the half that want it; same as slave owners were dragged into agreement. 

>> I didn't like that part of Hardin when I read him either.  Tragedy of the Commons yes, mutual coercion, not nearly so much.

No body wants to stand at a stop light at 2 in morning when there is no traffic but its part of the price we pay to get through the intersection safely most of the time. If we were only hermits we would not need street lights.

>> I have nothing against the collapse of civilization.  

You have never lived through the collapse of civilization though you might be able to conceptualize some not all aspects of  it.  Your question is can you do a cost benefit analysis of the alternatives.
Other people might not but if they could they might try and avoid it.  Like people with children my not cheer on civilization collapse in 2050.

>> I don't want to prevent it,

This is a very personal position in which you feel that civilization stole your abilities (opportunities) to feel all of nature.  You seem to  feel that civilization  blinded everyone else too.  Humankind would be better off without existing civilization.  Are you throwing out the baby with the bathwater?

A good civilization can provide some good aspects to life and does not have to contribute bad aspects as it has.   If we are truly sapient we might be able to get the good without the bad. 

>> I want to experience whatever it turns out to be.

This is an exhausted person talking -  You have worked harder than anyone to make life better in the future. 

On Feb 13, 2013, at 12:45 PM, Dan Smith wrote:

(cont......) 

Well, there is one very obvious way that Nature might surprise us....... just the way She has always surprised us, in the past...... Something goes 'bump' in the night.  

What might be different about this next Bump.....? 

It would be a bump that would give us all pause, something along the lines of The Day the Earth Stood Still.  No?  

But why not, Paul?  Does Nature care that little about her Mirror, that she will take one look in it, and then let it go Bust?  


(cont.......2) 



On Feb 13, 2013, at 12:25 PM, Dan Smith wrote:

Paul & CoF, 

Hey, do I have anything against economics?  BTW, my dad was an economist...... can't you tell?!! 

Nor should we suppose that Jack is anti-economics, nor anyone else on the CoF.  See, there is one thing that we all hold in common!  

And, another conviction that we all hold in common is that (conventional) economics, FWIW, is coming too little and too late to prevent Collapse.  This has to do with the Overshoot phenomenon.  Yes?  

We do need something more....... Something unprecedented.... in human experience.  

Or, Paul, do you suppose that Nature has no surprises?  


(cont......) 


On Feb 13, 2013, at 11:59 AM, Paul Chefurka wrote:

What mutual/consensual strategy?  How is coercion ever consensual?  Trying to reframe isimple coercion as "mutual coercion, mutually agreed upon" is the worst sort of muddleheaded ducking of a core moral issue.  What about the 6.995 billion people who decline to make it mutual?  There is no way to make this proposal morally acceptable by hiding behind a couple of out-of-place words.

I also don't think that slavery ended because we suddenly all came to Jesus.  It ended because it was no longer an economically winning strategy in the face of the technology coming in from the North.  the abolitionist arguments were just a convenient way of making a moral virtue out of an economic necessity.

Paul  

On Feb 13, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Dan Smith wrote:

(cont.......2)  

You would not be the only one, Paul, to say that such a big-bump could never happen, or that I'll believe when I see it!  

But, once again, let's look at this from Nature's point of view........ Oh, dear, I forgot, Nature has no PoV.  Only we do..... Or, is that human Exceptionalism?!  

Well, perhaps we are the Rogue species.  But, if we are THE rogue species, then there can be nothing natural about us.  Nature has no choice but to abort us, before we are able to take the Earth down with us.  'Naturally', we will be hoist on our own Petard!  

What about Truth and Beauty?  Are those also unnatural, rogue traits?  

And, finally, what of love?  Does Nature know nothing of love?  Does Nature naturally conspire against love, in the End?  

If that is the case then, Paul, what precisely do you see in Nature?  What is it that has you seemingly mesmerized by the 'flow' of Nature?  

(to be continued..... possibly on the road to see Arlo G, in Easton.....) 

From: Ronald 
Date: February 14, 2013 9:16:12 PM EST
To: David G
Cc: 13 others on the Sarfatti list.....

Subject: Re: Malachy remote views "The End"????

I did not convert to Islam.  I embraced Islam, overcoming boundaries imposed by human limitations and rejecting the bigotry that drives so much conflict.  I remain as Catholic as Benedict who requested private counsel.

On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 8:53 PM, David G wrote: 

Ron converted to Islam? You're just winding us up right? If he has, though you are right he goes to the Imam!
The news has been flowing that the Popes infirmities are  well known and it was the obvious solution. No one expected his furious attack against certain cliques in the church, tho.


On Feb 14, 2013, at 3:57 PM, caryn wrote:

>> In a message dated 2/11/2013 4:25:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> Dan Smith writes:
>>
>> I suspect that Ron, in his very recent visit to the Vatican, was
>> instrumental in this early retirement.  No?
 
Enough to make any man run for the hills ;-)
 
Anyhow, last I heard Ron had converted to Islam. Shouldn’t he be consulting with his local Imran rather than cavorting at the Vatican?


From: Gary S Bekkum 
To: David G 
Cc: .......
Sent: Wednesday, 13 February 2013, 0:00
Subject: Re: Malachy remote views "The End"????

A new Pope named Peter?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/9866227/Pope-resigns-Peter-Turkson-reveals-vision-for-the-Church-and-alternative-lifestyles.html

On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 5:37 PM, Gary S Bekkum wrote:
> My point had been the opposite of Dan's (as it often is) ... if there
> was strong anomalous intelligence of a final pope, a sign of The End
> (as was allegedly foreseen by Malachy) the powers-that-be might be
> inclined to forestall the change from Pope classic to New Pope
> (predicted to be called Peter).
>
> http://now.msn.com/new-pope-candidates-discussed-after-pope-benedicts-resignation
>
> On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 2:56 PM, David > wrote:
>> It makes no sense to think he had anything to do with it at all! The Pope is
>> old and infirm at 85. Looking for conspiracies in this is a waste of time.

From: Dan Smith 
Date: February 15, 2013 10:04:14 AM EST
To: David
Cc: ....... 

Subject: Re: Malachy remote views "The End"????

David, 

Hmmm......!  One might suppose........

Let's put our thinking caps on....... Head protectors, anyone?  

Chicken Little 


On Feb 14, 2013, at 11:40 PM, David wrote:

My big surprise is that a normally [sic!] private matter [counsel?] would be [made?!] public knowledge, it seems like a statement is being made. What is it?

On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Ronald wrote:
I did not convert to Islam.  I embraced Islam, overcoming boundaries imposed by human limitations and rejecting the bigotry that drives so much conflict.  I remain as Catholic as Benedict who requested private counsel.