Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

First topic message reminder :

Testing.......

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Congratulations to Cyrellys & Co.!

I will be continuing the BPWH blog from Compass Morainn, which was a continuation from the original OMF site on ProBoards, which is in the process of being re-archived from that site.



(cont.)

dan wrote:At the very least, Jake, God would have to be the valorizer of time. Without a cosmic Author, time/history is a tale of sound and fury, as told by an idiot! No?!

Could there be a cyclic time w/o God? This would be a pagan time. Even this might be too much. Cyclic time could not be objectified w/o a sapient self. W/o sapience, there cannot be a self, simply because there cannot be a self w/o self-determination or awareness. Here, we speak simply of the I am that I am, or even just the indubitable Cartesian ego.

In saying that time and God are co-determining, you are advocating a twin Godhead of Chronos and Yahweh. This surely is not Monotheism. This is another form of Deism, IMO. Newton also granted an absolute, independent status to time. He was the prototypical Deist.

And about the I Am...... you simply confuse the present with the Presence. There is a rather significant difference. One is logically prior to the other. Which One?!

No confusion. I was speaking more holistically. Present/Presence both fundamentally reflect a reality of 'Now', which is Time.

Yes, "Cyclic time could not be objectified w/o a sapient self" - as I worded: 'IS' implies Time. "I AM" can not be a truism without Time.

However I wouldn't use "cyclic time" to describe Time as it may be experienced in Eternity. ie: your alluding to "eternal presence" might be a more accurate conceptualization. The only cyclic potent of Time in Eternity, might be exemplified in the eternal relation between Bride and Christ - Agape is reciprocal, requires a form of Time - cyclic Time occurring instantaneously, if you will.

As an aside, I do not see dualism as the opposite of monism. Dualism is simply a description of the appearance of monism.

And thank you for correcting my misquote of Jesus. And so he proves my point.... Who the heck would want to spend an eternity w/o love?! The conclusion is that our egos must be subsumed by the apokastatic Agape. Yes? Surely, Jake, you do not wish to be the cosmic wall-flower, unless in the Tennysonian sense, wherein we are plucked unto the bosom of Abraham.

I do not see Ego surviving eschaton. Ego in itself is a form of separation. It must inherently be relinquished upon atonement. They cannot co-exist.

The book "A Course in Miracles" contains imo the most detailed understanding of the shedding of Ego in the hereafter. When I cross examined ACIM with the NT Red-Letters, I found no contradiction and the Red-Letters became clearer.

For instance; Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Abraham's Bosom) There is no Ego representation of Lazarus. I've not heard any Christian note this. The rich man however still harbors Ego. The 'gulf-fixed' separating the Rich man from Abraham's Bosom is an auto-cause of his Ego.

If there be a purgatory, Ego would be its reason to exist.

And, now, as to my ecclesiastical ambitions....... What are my signs? Well, on one of his good days, I tend to use poor little Pelican as my exhibit A. Of course, he would deny me in a trice, and has often done so, but, then, look at Peter, Heaven forbidding that we should ever compare Peter and Ron!! I have but two other exhibits..... the MoAPS and our universal Rapture, conveniently some 200 years hence. That's all she wrote, Jake. I'm just a one-trick pony! Dang me!

Peter and Ron deny thrice, LOL.
The Catfish wouldn't qualify because he can't remain true, nor real. Only a 'true' witness could suffice.

However, if your ecclesiastical ambitions are focused mainly upon worldly politics and societal engineering, then the Pelican may have some import. But that still remains illusive.

dan wrote:11:25------------

Convo with John C........ he will not be able to meet this week, as he is in the process of moving. We continued our discussion, from Sunday, about the apparent discrepancy of 75 days in the timeline of the tribulation, as given in the Old and New testaments. You can google this under 1260/1290/1335.........

A fuller understanding of this, imo, can be found when we incorporate Preterism in synergy with the futurist interpretation of the Great Tribulation.

The Jewish-Roman War was also 7 years: 66-73 CE

It's a long study, I have been able to harmonize the two views. However it would take a lengthly essay to cross reference all the prophecies, here. If I had the time, it might qualify for a PhD thesis. As you mention, Google can offer some assistance.

Thank you, Jake, for these further clarifications. I, too, look to a synthesis of the preterist and futurist interpretations of the apocalypses. I was interested to find the contrast between the prophetic and apocalyptic writings. The contrast seems to arise in association with the notion of dispensationalism, a rather thorny issue, mainly within Christendom. It also verges into the gnostic doctrine of God's omnipotence being curtailed by the intervention of demiurges or fallen angels, and so becoming an obstacle between us an God. The addition or removal of these obstacles or veils demarcate, via apocalypse, the various dispensations. The prophetic writings appeal to a more linear or continuous outworking of the plan of Salvation, or so I gather.


And, yes, I do believe that heaven will be egoless....... selfless? Maybe that, too! But not a Nirvana, either. There will be shape-shifting. Perhaps we will be personifying God's thoughts, in various guises. We are then the healing agents of God's multiple personality disorder, the agents of that intercourse and reconciliation. We become increasingly so, just with the ramification of our communications. These are aspects of the universalism, leading up to the spiritual Apocalypse that will preempt the Armageddon, at the last, dramatic minute.


And, yes, Jake, this Apocalypse is how the Second Coming will also fulfill the Great Commission.



7:30---------

I notice that some Christians seem to be having difficulty distinguishing between Heaven and the Millennium, and I don't blame them. This point came up with John, today........

The point of the Tribulation is to cleanse the world of sin, sinners and evil. It should then return unto our prelapsarian state of innocence and grace. There should then be no more suffering.... no more disease and death. Does this mean that the mosquitos will disappear, or that they will become immortal.

But, wait, then what about our fertility? Hmmm........?

There is definitely a widespread confusion about the Millennial kingdom of God, on Earth, that is supposed to be ruled over by Jesus, come again.




(cont.)

Dan, fyi ... http://gucas.academia.edu/ShanGao

"The puzzle had been plaguing me. Day after day, I gradually doubted the reality of continuous motion. But I still felt in my bones that the particles must move in some way. Finally, in the early morning of 12 October 1993, I experienced a sudden enlightenment. At that moment, I felt that my body permeated the whole universe and I was united with it. I "disappeared". A clear picture then appeared: a particle is jumping in a random and discontinuous way. It is not inert but active; it moves purely by its own "free will". Maybe God does play dice in the atomic world. I finally broke loose the tightest shackles of continuous motion with the help of inspiration."

GSB/SSR wrote:
Dan, fyi ... http://gucas.academia.edu/ShanGao

"The puzzle had been plaguing me. Day after day, I gradually doubted the reality of continuous motion. But I still felt in my bones that the particles must move in some way. Finally, in the early morning of 12 October 1993, I experienced a sudden enlightenment. At that moment, I felt that my body permeated the whole universe and I was united with it. I "disappeared". A clear picture then appeared: a particle is jumping in a random and discontinuous way. It is not inert but active; it moves purely by its own "free will". Maybe God does play dice in the atomic world. I finally broke loose the tightest shackles of continuous motion with the help of inspiration."

Gray, what an amazing coincidence that you would post this!

Just last month I also experienced a visual epiphany concerning continuous motion.

I was concentrating on Einstein's thought experiment of riding on a light beam. When suddenly I saw everything. The visualization only held for a few seconds and then vanished. Unlike Shan Gao's epiphany however, I saw the macro realm rather than the micro realm.

For those few seconds that I could hold the focus, I saw matter and the electromagnetic spectrum all at once. I saw everything swirls in motion. Not randomly but conforming to laws. I saw there is no vacuum in space, in absolute terms. Even in intergalactic space. (like Tesla's ether) I saw that as space expands the new space immediately fills in. Like a fluid. Everything is one, there are no gaps, just density variations. I saw that gravity was not a force, but mechanical (cause and effect) by the motion of matter and energy.

It was an astounding experience.

-----------------

Regarding Shan Goa's - "a particle is jumping in a random and discontinuous way...moves purely by its own "free will"

Fascinating! 'Mind' seemingly works like that.

Thank you, Gary.....

I do need to catch up with Shan Gao. I notice that he has published almost a dozen books, just within the past year, all available on Kindle. He is definitely a proponent of panpsychism, and seems to lean toward idealism generally. I have downloaded his Understanding Quantum Physics.

Would you please provide the specific source of the quote you give, above?

I am thinking that there must be some logical links between Shan Gao, Chris Langan and Craig Dilworth (Simplicity), but I have nothing firmly in mind, at this point.


@Jake...........

You suggest, from your own vision, what seems to be a materialist version of Shan's vision, which may be the version that he is pursuing. I will be seeing if I can find a more immaterialist version, buried somewhere in his work.



In the meantime, I've been reviewing the BPWH eschatology in preparation for Grace and Green. The main question remains the continuity between here and eternity........




(cont.)

Dan,
You posted while I responded to Gary. In case you missed it because of the page turn:

https://openmindsforum.forumotion.com/t6p765-hello-cy-hello-omf-ii#1684

Jake,
You suggest a materialist version of Shan's vision, which may be the version that he is pursuing. I will be seeing if I can find a more immaterialist version, buried somewhere in his work.

No, it wasn't a materialist vision. Material is the condensation of energy, while conforming to laws -information. It's All Light! And it's Alive

Dan,
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding concerning material and energy.

Describe immateralism.

Jake,

>> It's all light, and it's alive... <<.

Perhaps you could elaborate a bit.........



What do I mean by immaterialism......? No phenomenon is real, unless it is perceived.

And that is just for starters........ There are no unobservable phenomena. But this begs numerous questions...... Are atoms, dinosaurs or the big-bang real, even though they can be observed indirectly?

I'm inclined to say no. But what I subscribe to more positively is that to be real is to be related, and the most related things we know of, directly, are our own selves. Relationalism thus implies idealism.

The immediate implication is that we have to posit a cosmic self, in order to explain and to interrelate our own disparate selves. Thus is God the first corollary of relationalism/immaterialism.

Most pagans and new-agers posit planetary gods that mediate between us and the cosmic God. For many reasons, I don't subscribe to this latter point, not the least of which is its incompatibility with Christianity, and we have covered this ground many times. It's all about the BPWH.



Back to eschatology.........

We have the earthly and heavenly kingdoms, and we wish to integrate them as best possible. We wish to optimize the historical continuity between the two realms, as we also wish to find continuity when connecting the historical Omega back to the earthly Garden or Alpha.

How much of our 'dematerializing' takes place before and then after our actual transfer? The presumption being that it will not be business as usual, once the still extant residue of humanity joins the dear departed, in heaven. IOW, most of us make this transition, postmortem, wherein we are fitted with some form of glorified body, to put it most simply. Wrt the remnant, clean-up crew, some of the 'glorification' will be taking place before, during and after the transition.

But why not take the easy, discontinuous route, via the deep-six? Well, I don't want our long delayed rapture to turn into a Heaven's Gate. The aesthetic of ked's and applesauce is just not right, sorry.




(cont.)

dan wrote:Jake,

>> It's all light, and it's alive... <<.

Perhaps you could elaborate a bit.........

I could only hold the focus of the vision for perhaps 4-6 seconds. And it came only after intensely trying to imagine riding on a light beam, while holding in mental RAM all the scientific knowledge I have. Only then did I understand how Einstein came up with his theories.

And it was during that thought that the vision came to view. But I can't call up the full vision from memory at will. And so I can't fully describe it, as only part of it is in my physical memory. All I have is a watered down version of the epiphany moment.

"It's All Light": All that is, that can be seen and measured with our existent limitations, can be reduced to Light. And there is no such thing as absolute vacuum. Light is everywhere, down to the most infinitesimal time/space. When highly condensed, wrapped up into a subatomic sphere of time/space it appears as what we call the building blocks of matter.

"And it's Alive": This is difficult to explain without being able to see the vision and describe it from memory, as one would describe the memory of a vacation. I could briefly see everything including the electromagnetic spectrum. I can't see it in my mind now.

All the energy is active (continuous motion) in a purposeful manner. Like a symphony. But that doesn't explain it either. As it's so complex and enormous in scale that I couldn't see or understand the symphony. It wasn't a religious experience, just a visual. I could simply see that everything was moving for a reason, for a cause and effect, and with an immense amount of information in every cubic centimeter of the Cosmos. I can't explain it, its too much, it simply appears as if, it has to be Alive.

What do I mean by immaterialism......? No phenomenon is real, unless it is perceived.

And that is just for starters........ There are no unobservable phenomena. But this begs numerous questions...... Are atoms, dinosaurs or the big-bang real, even though they can be observed indirectly?

I'm inclined to say no. But what I subscribe to more positively is that to be real is to be related, and the most related things we know of, directly, are our own selves. Relationalism thus implies idealism.

Sounds like you are describing 'thought' (or Spirit).

'Thought' too, is organized energy. But a different form of energy than in our cosmic space/time. I'm doubtful that 'thought' can be seen nor measured in the cosmos. Only its effect.

I'm not sure about this, as mind can recognize 'thought', and brains can store memory.

Much work to do

Thanks, Jake......

Ok, what you are calling condensed light, I would be inclined to call condensed thought, as you suggested earlier.

How would that 'work'......?

Our biological connection with 'matter' is built up through a process of cyclic habituation, both personally and interpersonally. The 'material' world is spun out by us, as if we were making our cocoon, which we are, and which it is.

How do we spin the Sun, for instance.....? Is it a 'biological' process? On the modern view, it is we who were spun out by the Sun. Allow me to make a slight correction.......

The Sun acts as our dynamo, energizing our food web and our weather systems. Food is condensed sunlight, as Jake would suggest. If it were just condensed thought, where would we get the energy from?

Presumably, when we get to heaven, energy and metabolism are no longer an issue, and that is one reason why I am pursuing the problem of the transition between here and there. That transition may help to shed some light on the energy problem.

We have Bachelard pursuing the psychology of fire. Where is the energy in that? It might seem that, with immaterialism, I am trying to run that film backwards, which is not entirely off the mark. I mentioned this in terms of heliotropism, back on the BPW site. How do we connect the psyche with metabolism?


4:40--------

With Henry Adams, we had the Dynamo and the Virgin. Now we need Psyche and the Dynamo!

This is where I got to, about a month ago....... Creation is the dynamo of heaven, complete with (soul) windings and and an armature in the magnetic aperture, i.e. in the gap where O >> A. But does this explain the Sun? Where is Ra, when we need him? Or what about the Son?

Mass is not conserved in the process of Creation, so why should we worry about energy? According to the BPWH, fossil fuels is primordial, i.e. built in to the Creation, with no energy transfer being presumed. The fossil fuels are restored in the O >> A redemption, the Alpha acting as a secondary attractor wrt the Omega.

Perhaps we need to revive Freud's pneumatic model of the psyche, in order to power the cosmic mind.

Ok, our psyches are like honeybees, sent out from Eden to bring pollen back to the Hive. What then is the pollen? It could be our eidetic memories. How so? How do we mine or transubstantiate the akashic record?

We do this in the process of memory consolidation. The Many is transmuted back into the One. Is this not just a perpetual motion machine? Or is it Eternal motion? Well, even in physics, the universe is supposed to be a spontaneous quantum fluctuation that has run amok..... a virtual free-lunch!

Or how about fear and hate being transmuted into Agape, cosmic honey? Hey, how about some agapic honey in your gas tank? Think of the MPG's!

Where does this leave poor Sol? Twisting in the wind?! Trying to hide behind Luna?

IMHO, there is no fire in Heaven, so how did Prometheus steal it? Using one of Zeus' thunderbolts...... speaking of dynamos?!



(cond.)

The simplest way to power an immaterial cosmos is by using a psychic analog of Boyles' gas law....... Our egos expand on the outward stroke, and then release energy as they psychically meld, on the inward stroke. It may be just that simple. Atheist existentialism represents the the psychic apogee of that orbit. It is the Internet that is now precipitating the return stroke..... in which we become as a super-cooled liquid that is about to be seeded with an ice crystal, on D-day. This is the knowledge implosion of the BPWH/CL.

Is this what powers the Sun...... instead of hydrogen fusion, it is actually ego fusion?! Surely, I jest!

Well, by the same token, I am also being a tad skeptical of metabolism, in general, photosynthetic and otherwise. Metabolism is just one version of our variously habituated phenomenological cycles, one of which is heliotropism. Atoms, photons and the Sun emerge as the 'condensation' of these phenomenologies. They all emerge out of our primordial Dreamtime, which, across the O >/< A gap, is an extension of our final, Rapturous Dreamtime, of the 144 million, which will culminate in about 200 years. Yes?!

Eternity serves as the psychic battery for this single stroke engine, which has only this (best possible) singular circuit. You and I are the windings on the armature. Now, if only I could explain how a candle works! Should it be more difficult than explaining the Sun? BTW, there is no Sun in Heaven, nor in our dreams, so you needn't bring your SPF 50.

We've all heard of pyromania, so why not pyrotropism, as a slight extension of Gaston Bachelard? Fire emerges from our Zeus/Prometheus complex. But then how does lightning emerge?

Lightning can be blamed, in part, on cosmic-ray muons, of a distinctly heavenly origin. And, just on the scientific account, lightning may have played a crucial role in triggering the nitrogen cycle. This is part of the lore of the Anthropic principle, out of which emerges the BPWH, once its materialist veil has been stripped!

Is the possibility that lightning may not be subsumable under the rubric of fire going to be another headache for the BPWH?

Lightning is a definite outlier, in the phenomenal world. Who ordered that?..... to borrow a phrase from II Rabi. And, as I was searching this phrase, I stumbled onto the reports of a new particle, out of Russia, the E(38) boson, which, unlike the Higgs, does not fit into the Standard model.


2:15-----------

Where does lightning fit into the BPW? Where do thunderstorms fit? If thunderstorms are like our meteorological cupcakes, then lightning is the frosting. Do we want egg in our beer? Of course, we do! But then think of all the might-have-beens! But lightning does manage to come off as natural, where pink elephants might not.

Why did we have to have the muon, other than to help naturalize lightning and so the nitrogen cycle? Could Creation not have worked with only one generation of fermions? I'm trying to remember my physics. Were the other two generations meant only for the entertainment of physicists? Hey, that's no small thing!

Given 'thunderstorms', i.e. cumulonimbus events, if there were no associated lightning, meteorologists would then be faced with puzzling natural lacuna. No? We could say the same for static electricity, to which lightning is related. But we are still lacking an immaterial or metaphysical explanation.

I see no hint of a phenomenological import for the higer generations of fermions. Now, the symmetric 4x4 matrix of the Standard particles is suggestive of a mathematical necessity, but I've not seen that spelled out explicitly. And, on closer examination, the four gauge bosons do directly fit in with the 4x3 matrix of the fermions. It seems to have been appended, only to artificially enhance the appearance of symmetry. Somebody is messing with our minds, it would seem.

Furthermore, the only arguments against even higher generations of fermions, are the experimental data, which do not appear to have any import outside the laboratory, not even in the alleged residue of the big-bang. But wait, again, does the Higgs play a role, other than in the mass splittings between the generations? Well, actually, the Higgs is directly involved mainly, or only, in the mass splitting the two pairs of gauge bosons, and that splitting does have serious natural consequences. Ok, enough physics for now.


3:30------------

But, we are still left with the phenomenology of fire and lightning.........

Much of the problem with metaphysics is just to formulate a clear description of the problem, and given that formulation, the answer may seem obvious.

We could also invoke the problem of the norther-lights. Are they frosting on the Eskimo pie, or just a fancy way to avoid another natural lacuna?

All of the luminous phenomena involve extensions of the atomic physics that emerges from metabolism. And, closely related is color vision, which, in humans, at least, seems only to add an aesthetic dimension. And this brings us back to the whole issue of vision and perception, which is coming full-circle, whatever that circle might be.


One of the most serious aspects of the mind-body problem is the provenance of color, not the physics of it, but the metaphysics.

The problem is that photons aren't colored, and neither are the braincells or synapses. So what is going on, and what does this have to do with the Northern-lights? The same may be said of tones and tastes, and every other quality and intentionality that comprises the entirety of consciousness. This is the foundation of immaterialism.

We speak glibly of abstractions, but it is not at all clear how a pure abstraction could be entertained by any mind. Oh, yes, the next time you see a computer, ask it to explain to you the difference between the abstract and concrete, and, while you're at it, the difference between quantity and quality, or between is and ought, or conscious and unconscious! Is this being mean to our silicon friends? Ought we be nice?





(cont.)

Jake Reason wrote:

GSB/SSR wrote:
Dan, fyi ... http://gucas.academia.edu/ShanGao

"The puzzle had been plaguing me. Day after day, I gradually doubted the reality of continuous motion. But I still felt in my bones that the particles must move in some way. Finally, in the early morning of 12 October 1993, I experienced a sudden enlightenment. At that moment, I felt that my body permeated the whole universe and I was united with it. I "disappeared". A clear picture then appeared: a particle is jumping in a random and discontinuous way. It is not inert but active; it moves purely by its own "free will". Maybe God does play dice in the atomic world. I finally broke loose the tightest shackles of continuous motion with the help of inspiration."

Gray, what an amazing coincidence that you would post this!

Just last month I also experienced a visual epiphany concerning continuous motion.

I was concentrating on Einstein's thought experiment of riding on a light beam. When suddenly I saw everything. The visualization only held for a few seconds and then vanished. Unlike Shan Gao's epiphany however, I saw the macro realm rather than the micro realm.

For those few seconds that I could hold the focus, I saw matter and the electromagnetic spectrum all at once. I saw everything swirls in motion. Not randomly but conforming to laws. I saw there is no vacuum in space, in absolute terms. Even in intergalactic space. (like Tesla's ether) I saw that as space expands the new space immediately fills in. Like a fluid. Everything is one, there are no gaps, just density variations. I saw that gravity was not a force, but mechanical (cause and effect) by the motion of matter and energy.

It was an astounding experience.

-----------------

Regarding Shan Goa's - "a particle is jumping in a random and discontinuous way...moves purely by its own "free will"

Fascinating! 'Mind' seemingly works like that.

Bingo!

Now that you've been there, return. Come and go. It is no different than trekking in the wilderness. Once you've been somewhere once you can always get there again.

Now allow your perception to track the various patterns of awareness....and allow those patterns to become full expressions of consciousness and observe them in action. Free will.

Energy, random, discontinuous, coherence, pattern, awareness, free will, intent, consciousness, effect.

Next relationships and collectives...ever widening inter-connections in a macro-organism.

Cy

@Jake...........

You suggest, from your own vision, what seems to be a materialist version of Shan's vision, which may be the version that he is pursuing. I will be seeing if I can find a more immaterialist version, buried somewhere in his work.

Not immaterialist...the root of life...foundation of relationships...

"It's All Light": All that is, that can be seen and measured with our existent limitations, can be reduced to Light. And there is no such thing as absolute vacuum. Light is everywhere, down to the most infinitesimal time/space. When highly condensed, wrapped up into a subatomic sphere of time/space it appears as what we call the building blocks of matter.

"And it's Alive": This is difficult to explain without being able to see the vision and describe it from memory, as one would describe the memory of a vacation. I could briefly see everything including the electromagnetic spectrum. I can't see it in my mind now.

All the energy is active (continuous motion) in a purposeful manner. Like a symphony. But that doesn't explain it either. As it's so complex and enormous in scale that I couldn't see or understand the symphony. It wasn't a religious experience, just a visual. I could simply see that everything was moving for a reason, for a cause and effect, and with an immense amount of information in every cubic centimeter of the Cosmos. I can't explain it, its too much, it simply appears as if, it has to be Alive.

Correct. The literal synapses of mind/Consciousness.

We can only learn to understand a fraction of its cause, intent, effect triadic pattern. What we perceive directly in outreach is what I have referred to as Synchroncity. It is the scaled down strands most easily accessible perceptionally by ourselves. This is the Creative Source and Synchronicity is its hand in action.

Return and learn to interact directly. You've seen it in that respect now see it in action in your environment and respond when it outreaches directly to you. No Fear.

Cy

Dan said:

We speak glibly of abstractions, but it is not at all clear how a pure abstraction could be entertained by any mind. Oh, yes, the next time you see a computer, ask it to explain to you the difference between the abstract and concrete, and, while you're at it, the difference between quantity and quality, or between is and ought, or conscious and unconscious! Is this being mean to our silicon friends? Ought we be nice?

Dan those are not so much abstractions as they are facets of expression. And an expression is....

Cy

Admin wrote:Bingo!

Now that you've been there, return. Come and go. It is no different than trekking in the wilderness. Once you've been somewhere once you can always get there again.

Now allow your perception to track the various patterns of awareness....and allow those patterns to become full expressions of consciousness and observe them in action. Free will.

>

Return and learn to interact directly. You've seen it in that respect now see it in action in your environment and respond when it outreaches directly to you. No Fear.

Cy

Thank you very much, Cy. You wrote what I needed to hear.
Will do.

I believe I could experience it again. It wasn't a spiritual epiphany (at least I don't think so?), rather an exercise in imagination. A form of intense focus while loading up my mental Ram. It would probably take an hour or so, to get into that frame of mind. It starts with riding on a light beam.

I remember when I passed Jupiter on my way out. Over a period of approx a minute, it first looked like a star in the distance, then began to look like the shape of a football with the point toward me, then it began to stretch as if it were elastic. When I passed by, it was stretched out like a long worm. And then retracted until becoming a star again. And then disappeared. At that point I realized by what I saw, that I must not have been traveling fast enough, perhaps only 1/2 the speed of light. So I kicked it up a notch.

Soon thereafter everything changed and 'space' was no longer empty.

I wasn't going to share my experience here, but Gary's post about Shan Gao changed my mind.

Thank you again for your encouragement, Cy. Yes, there is more to learn from this.

Cy,

You, very reliably, provide us with the organic, holistic, pantheist, panpsychic, pagan, animist, mystical worldview, and a very important corrective that is, to the default, and still reigning pall of modernist orthodoxy that is the scientific materialist, mechanist, reductionist worldview.

The BPWH goes just one step further. It incorporates the essential insight of Einstein's general relativity....... not only is velocity relative, but so is time itself, contra Newton and all of 'classical' physics.

In all my nearly seventy years of searching, I have not found one other person who has been willing or able to make a cosmic case out of Einstein's essential insight, not even Albert, himself, could take this next, highly unorthodox, step. Why no one else.......?

It's just a just a stubborn fact that, where the angels fear to tread, eventually, a fool, like me, will rush in........

All I am doing is extending Einstein's relativity to its logical, yet very heterodox, conclusion. Most everyone else would say insane...... all existence is relative.


OTL.............

.

dan wrote:Thanks, Jake......

Ok, what you are calling condensed light, I would be inclined to call condensed thought, as you suggested earlier.

How would that 'work'......?

Our biological connection with 'matter' is built up through a process of cyclic habituation, both personally and interpersonally. The 'material' world is spun out by us, as if we were making our cocoon, which we are, and which it is.

This is reasonable, Dan. However I don't think "our" thoughts are the manifest cause agents.

Our minds are too puny. We don't have enough neurons, if you will. Our collective minds could perhaps move matter (like miracles), but not sufficient to make 'matter' be. Our minds are deficient for such complexity of scale.

A higher mind beyond our comprehension is required.

Jake,

>> Our minds are too puny....... <<

All things are relative, but the question is, relative to what? In all of our conversations, over many years, now, you have never once been able to entertain the possibility that we creatures might possibly have a significant role assigned to us wrt Creation.

Perhaps your primary motivation, in this regard, stems from your misunderstanding and disregard for your soul mates. Most Xians feel themselves to be isolated and disregarded in modern society, and they tell each other, repeatedly, that they are sinners and unworthy, and, of course, the same goes, in spades, for all those others, the non-Xians.

In this regard, Jesus failed his mission, which was to lift us up, to tell us that we all are saved. But we are afraid of actually being saved. We are not ready to meet our Maker. And we have no grasp of the true meaning of Communion, how we thereby become one with the Creator.

That's ok, Jake, I don't expect anyone to understand this, at first. It will take a generation or two to actually sink in. At first, it will just be another abstraction, not unlike any other cosmic theory, except that it is much more radical than any previous.




(cont.)

dan wrote:Jake,

>> Our minds are too puny....... <<

All things are relative, but the question is, relative to what? In all of our conversations, over many years, now, you have never once been able to entertain the possibility that we creatures might possibly have a significant role assigned to us wrt Creation.

I have expressed numerous times and ways that we will play a significant role in creation. But yes Dan, I can not entertain a possibility that primordial Adamic tribes created the earth.

Puny minds? Well try changing water into wine. I'm sure you'd like to learn that trick. And hey! it would free up more for charity. Double plus. Good reasons for motivation. Sufficient reward too.

Ah but that will remain but a dream, for a very long while.

In this regard, Jesus failed his mission, which was to lift us up, to tell us that we all are saved. But we are afraid of actually being saved. We are not ready to meet our Maker.

Apparently you don't know 'Jesus' too well.

I recommend a red-letter review.

Well, Jake,

Did Jesus come here to save you, or to save the world? And, that latter job, has he finished that, yet? Just wondering........

Water into wine...... No, I'm just a one-trick pony.

I have expressed numerous times and ways that we will play a significant role in creation. But yes Dan, I can not entertain a possibility that primordial Adamic tribes created the earth.

Once again, Jake, you are presupposing that Creation runs on Newton's notion of an absolute, linear time. Well, here's a news flash, it wasn't Newton who created the world, it was Jesus, and he is the Alpha and Omega, and if he wanted to enlist us, he has that prerogative, unless you wish to deny that choice to him.

.

Save the world.
He knew it would take a long time, too. His disciples were apparently impatient. Not much has changed on that front.

linear time?
Well, 'Jesus' presumed that was the way things are for us now. And when we look around, what else are we to think? at least until we perhaps learn to time travel.

Time, is at it is. Enjoy it, Dan! Accept it for what it be. It is the only existence you will know till you go bye-bye.

C'est la Vie.

To everything thing, there is a time, and a season, under heaven.

Cheers

Hi, Jake,

I'm preparing to meet with John C of SfA for lunch, tomorrow. This will be only our second meeting outside of church. The last meeting, with him and Bill, almost two years ago when I was a new participant, did not go well. Will this one go any better?

John is my polar opposite in the seminar. He very much goes by the book, but he is my only possible confederate on the young-earth side. It just occurs to me that there probably is a connection, and that's why I've been sticking with GFC/SfA.

John is a bit inconsistent on the Endtimes........ The countdown has started, but the real action wont begin untill the Tribulation is underway.

I don't know what to do about that. I have nothing new to say....... We are due for a reprieve from the Tribulation. We have been granted a reprieve from nuclear armageddon, which would leave the world in very poor shape for the Millennium.

I would point out to John that the Armageddon of the bible is hardly a match for any sort of nuclear holocaust. And what about the Grand deception and the Great apostasy? And what have the Xians conrtributed to disarmament. That idea runs very contrary to all their right-wing rhetoric, and even the pro-gun stance of many of them.

Also, Xians, generally, are anti-Green, which is seen as a Satanic conspiracy to disenfranchise them by promoting more government intervention.

What did Jesus say about the Tribulation and Armageddon?



(cont.)

Still watching the continuing Inaugural wrapups.......

There is word out that Larry is still attempting to penetrate the coverup. There may be a more serious and a less serious side to this strategy. I have no personal knowledge. I do still want to meet with Chris.

The lunch meeting with John C has been postponed 'til tomorrow. It might be significant. In preparation for this meeting, I've been studying the Olivet discourse. This discourse does present a very significant challenge to CL.

We don't know where CK fits in. But it does seem that the issue of karma is important in this continuing private initiative. About this, I have calls into R&A, but no response, despite that I'm only trying to return his call from last evening.

There is also a call into Eduardo L. We understand that AP has been in contact with some Ecuadorian shaman.



4:45-------------

After speaking with CK, it appears that Larry may have been mislead about the status of the guests that he is flying from DC to Phila. But the jury is still out.




(cont.)

dan wrote:Hi, Jake,

I'm preparing to meet with John C of SfA for lunch, tomorrow.

John is my polar opposite in the seminar. He very much goes by the book, but he is my only possible confederate on the young-earth side.

As you know, the young-earth view is usually indicative of narrow-mindedness and Biblical literalism. Not a good match for you. I would suspect he has agreed to meet you, under the motive to evangelize.

John is a bit inconsistent on the Endtimes........ The countdown has started, but the real action wont begin until the Tribulation is underway.

That is perhaps the most prevalent view. Most believe the re-establishment of Israel to have been the 'sign' that commenced the roll-out of the end-times. But that the Great Tribulation has not yet begun. According to prophecy the Temple is present during the Great Trib. And so the presumption is, until it is rebuilt we can't be in the GT.

I don't know what to do about that. I have nothing new to say....... We are due for a reprieve from the Tribulation. We have been granted a reprieve from nuclear armageddon, which would leave the world in very poor shape for the Millennium.

I would point out to John that the Armageddon of the bible is hardly a match for any sort of nuclear holocaust.

Yes, but 1/3rd of the world's population is prophesied to parish by war. A limited nuclear exchange would fit the prophecies. Armageddon is the last battle, after all wars. It takes place solely in Israel.

And what about the Grand deception and the Great apostasy?
And what have the Xians contributed to disarmament. That idea runs very contrary to all their right-wing rhetoric, and even the pro-gun stance of many of them.

This is where you will receive the greatest resistance.

As every interpretation of prophecy includes an Anti-Christ. It/his purpose is to con the world into accepting a false religion. This religion will incorporate and collude with Christianity, but it will not be truly Christian.

And Dan, you of course are trying to do exactly that. So red lights and sirens will always sound when you try to convince Christians of your new religion.

As for the guns? The AC system will be forced on the world's people, by Government. With refusal subject to imprisonment and/or death. And so it is natural for American Evangelical Christians to be very worried that its government may turn on them, as prophecy outlines.

Also, Xians, generally, are anti-Green, which is seen as a Satanic conspiracy to disenfranchise them by promoting more government intervention.

It is my experience that Christians are usually more pro-green, than non-Christians. Government intervention is seen as a separate issue.

What did Jesus say about the Tribulation and Armageddon?

I see you read the Olivet Discourse, today.

The rest can be read in the book - Revelation. Its full title is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ".

Oh and one other major resistance... Prophecy is quite clear of an actual return of Christ. Not a human or worldly replacement.

I'm sorry I can't offer more help in prep for your lunch meeting.