The Bible, UFOs, ET and the Ancients Part 3

First topic message reminder :

Hi ScarZ,

Thank you for posting this information. Does any of David Flynn's material give any idea to the time-frames for the early events or historical figures that his research indicated?

Thanks ScaRZ for posting this.

But WOW, David sure had an imagination. I don't think I can swallow this interpretation. Stretched a little too far.

Michael Heiser's interpretation makes more sense.

But I'm still on-the-fence as to what this passage all means.


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Flavius Josephus is interesting and enlightening. I'm still to finish reading his book, "The War of the Jews".

One thing I've noticed about him is that he wrote in a manner that would be acceptable to Rome, for self protection sake. And "opportunist" of his time. There is great history in his writings, but we need remain mindful of how his allegiances would have influenced what he wrote and how he expressed it.

I agree with your points on the material of Flavius Josephus. We are all influenced by our culture. Much like I've heard Michael Heiser say, we need not attempt to read The Bible as a science book.

We also must attempt to place ourselves in the period of time The Bible content was written.

Josephus was a man who was reading the scrolls and gave his thinking on them. There is no doubt the period of time he was living influenced him greatly, as we all are.

You know Jake I've mentioned it several times in the past, that we tend to view end times prophecy in our time frame of today. We seem to see things as rapping up very quickly......"All within our time of living."........"A few years and it's all over."

Back in the days when Jesus Christ left this earth his followers viewed it the same way. I would say most of them thought they would live to see the return of Jesus Christ. On down through the centuries I believe most have viewed it the same way.

From: David Ulansey Biblical Archaeology Review, vol. 20,#5 pp. 40-53

Because the ancients believed in the real existence of the great sphere of the stars, its various parts-- such as its axis and poles-- played a central role in the cosmology of the time. In particular, one important attribute of the sphere of the stars was much better known in antiquity than it is today: namely, its equator, known as the "celestial equator."Just as the earth's equator is defined as a circle around the earth equidistant from the north and south poles, so the celestial equator was understood as a circle around the sphere of the stars equidistant from the sphere's poles. The circle of the celestial equator was seen as having a particularly special importance because of the two points where it crosses the circle of the zodiac: for these two points are the equinoxes, that is, the placeswhere the sun, in its movement along the zodiac, appears to be on the first day of spring and the first day of autumn. Thus the celestial equator was responsible for defining the seasons, and hence had a very concrete significance in addition to its abstract astronomical meaning.

As a result, the celestial equator was often described in ancient popular literature about the stars. Plato, for example, in his dialogue Timaeus said that when the creator of the universe first formed the cosmos, he shaped its substance in the form of the letter X, representing the intersection of the two celestial circles of the zodiac and the celestial equator. Thisc ross-shaped symbol was often depicted in ancient art to indicate the cosmic sphere. In fact, one of the most famous examples of this motif is a Mithraic stone carving showing the so-called "lion-headed god," whose image is often found in Mithraic temples, standing on a globe that is marked with the cross representing the two circles of the zodiac and the celestial equator.

One final fact about the celestial equator is crucial: namely, that it does not remain fixed, but rather possesses a slow movement known as the "precession of the equinoxes." This movement, we know today, is caused by a wobble in the earth's rotation on its axis. As a result of this wobble, the celestial equator appears to change its position over the course of thousands of years. This movement is known as the precession of the equinoxes because its most easily observable effect is a change in the positions of the equinoxes, the places where the celestial equator crosses the zodiac. In particular, the precession results in the equinoxes moving slowly backward along the zodiac, passing through one zodiacal constellation every 2,160 years and through the entire zodiac every 25,920 years.

ScaRZ and Jake,

The definitive work on the zodiacal overlap between astronomy and 'mythology' is Hamlet's Mill by de Santillana. This book had a considerable impact on the BPWH.

It is still the case that very few people are aware of this connection. I had not previously heard of the connection that you draw wrt Elijah's chariot (of fire). There may be a double allusion.

Hamlet's Mill had no small influence on my adoption of a pre-Coperincan, geocentric view. Hey, don't blame it all on me!

Hello Dan,great to see you drop in. Thanks for the link,I will check it out.

This might help in understanding why David Flynn and Michael Heiser view Ezekiel’s vision relating to astrology/astronomy.

Below are some of Michael Heiser's thoughts on the subject. Click the link for the full article.

http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2008/08/ezekiels-vision-part-2/


The one thing I think most noteworthy about all this is the eyes. In Ezekiel 1 we read that the wheels were full of eyes. What does that have to do with the zodiac or astrology? Simple. The Hebrew word for “eyes” is ‘ayin. This is the normal word for that body part through which we see. The same word is also used (by Ezekiel, no less — in the SAME CHAPTER) to describe “sparkling” or “gleaming” (cf. Ezek. 1:4; Ezek. 1:16). Here’s a suggestion: “eyes” should be understood in Ezekiel 1 AND Ezekiel 10 as “stars” (“sparkling things”). This fits amazingly well with chapter 10, since there both the creatures and the wheels have the eyes. Get it . . . creatures . . . cardinal points of the zodiac . . . the creatures having eyes (“stars”) in them? What creatures have stars in them? The ones you see in the sky – the signs of the zodiac.

And for kickers, this is also what the apostle John says he saw in Revelation 4-5 when he looked up into the heavens — animals with stars in them.

No, it wasn’t a flying saucer. Ezekiel’s visions are about an enthroned God who controls the the cycles of time (the zodiac and its movements), and is up to something . . . .

One passing thought (and it isn’t for PaleoBabble to lay this out): What if, when Jesus said that there would be signs in the heavens pointing to the second coming, he meant exactly what he said? Not that we could know the day or hour (which Jesus flatly said we could not) – but which would give us SOME information.

Remember the star of Bethlehem? Who saw it and knew what it meant? Magi . . . from . . . BABYLON. Hmmmm.

Additional material from David Flynn.


Virgo, is depicted as a virgin in every ancient reference, holding in one hand a branch, and in the other a sheaf of grain, or seed, always associated with a child, "Shesh nu" in Egyptian, the desired son, the symbol of the incarnation of God on earth.


Libra, the scales or in the earliest zodiacs, an altar. Its meaning is the measuring of a price. One of its stars in Arabic means, "the price which is deficient",while opposite is a star whose name means, "the price which covers," or atonement. Libra symbolizes the price of the conflict, the deficient works of man compared to the perfect and finished sacrifice of Jesus accomplished on the cross.


Scorpio,with his claws reaching out to influence the scales, is crushed beneath the foot of Ophiuchus, the serpent holder, who in earliest times was depicted as an eagle. Ophiuchus 's foot is stung (wounded foot, like Oedipus) by the upraised tail of the scorpion, his other foot is above the scorpion's heart. He restrains the serpent coiled around him from taking a crown.Ophiuchus depicts the earliest prophecy in the Bible, "I will put enmity between the serpent and the offspring of the woman, it will strike at his heel, and he will crush (the serpent's) head."


Sagittarius,in the oldest pictures of the zodiac is a cherubim. This symbol is situated 1/3rd of the way around the zodiacal circle. It had the body of both lion and bull with wings of an eagle and the head of a woman. Sagittarius is the symbol of the incarnation, both God and man, animals representing the four corners of the heavens and symbolizing the aspects of God's redemptive work on this earth, he is poised with his arrow drawn and pointed at the heart of the scorpion. Underneath him is the southern cross.


Capricorn, the goat with the tail of the fish. To the Hebrews, the goat was the sin offering, Capricorn is posed with his foot under him and his head bowed,as if in death. The second half of this symbol is the tail of a fish, the most prolific creature in nature, the fish lives in the waters, symbol of life and God's spirit. Out of the son of God's death, comes everlasting life.


Aquarius,the water bearer, the one pouring out life giving waters that symbolize God's spirit, into the mouth of the fish.


Pisces, the fishes connected to the neck of the sea monster, one points to the center of heaven the other follows the ecliptic, the path of the earth around the sun. "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."


Aries, the lamb prepared from the foundations of the world, the unblemished sacrifice for mankind. with his foot poised to strike off the tether attaching the fishes to the neck of the sea monster. "He (Jesus Christ), came to set the captives free".


Taurus, the Bull. His horns, symbolizing God's judgment, are pointed to the earth,one stabs the heal of a shepherd "Aquilla", who holds his flock, Christ the good shepherd, received in our place God's absolute judgment. In the bull's neck is the Pleiades, the congregating of the judges, who come back to earth after their resurrection to judge the earth with Christ at his second coming.


Gemini, the twins. Castor is the suffering redeemer, and Pollux is the king. Symbols of the first and second coming of Christ.


Cancer, the crab. Originally it was the fortress, the impregnable enclosure of protection. In Egypt it was a scarab, the beetle that hatched from the ground and flew to heaven, the stronghold of the saved.


Leo, the great lion. "The conquering lion of Judah", Jesus Christ, who will come again. The king that the apostle John traced back to that tribe of Israel. In his heart is the star called Regulus.



This is the whole story of God's atonement work on earth, its beginning and ending are symbolized by the sphinx combining Virgo and Leo.

Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

The true meaning of the celestial zodiac and the symbols of the ecliptic, the course the sun appears to travel the heavens, seems to have been lost to the majority of mankind. The purpose of the zodiac symbols can be understood by connecting the sequence of pictures in story form.

But what is that connection? What point in the circle of heaven is its beginning?

Sphinx in Greek means to "connect or bind together". A sphinx combines the head of a woman and the body of a lion. This fixes the beginning and ending of the celestial narrative -- beginning with Virgo and ending with Leo.

The Witness of the Stars

By E.W. Bullinger (1893)

http://www.levendwater.org/books/witness/the_witness_of_the_stars_bullinger.pdf



For more than two thousand five hundred years the world was without a written revelation from God. The question is, Did God leave Himself without a witness? The question is answered very positively by the written Word that He did not. In Romans 1:19 it is declared that, "that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them. For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen,being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal
power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

" But how was God known? How were His "invisible things," i.e., His plans, His purposes, and His counsels, known since the creation of the world? We are told by the Holy Spirit in Romans 10:18. Having stated in v. 17 that "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word (the thing spoken, sayings) of God," He asks, "But I say,Have they not heard? Yes, verily." And we may ask, How have they heard? The answer follows--"Their sound went into all the earth and their words (their teaching, message, instruction) unto the ends of the world." What words? What instruction? Whose message? Whose teaching?

There is only one answer, and that is,THE HEAVENS! This is settled by the fact that the passage is quoted from Psalm 19, [one] part of which is occupied with the Revelation of God written in the Heavens, and the part with the Revelation of God written in the Word.

ScaRZ wrote:
Gemini, the twins. Castor is the suffering redeemer, and Pollux is the king. Symbols of the first and second coming of Christ.

'Jesus' (Immanuel/Y'shua) was born under this sign.

Contrary to most Christian teaching, the Bible DOES record when he and John-the-Baptist were born. It was recorded in sufficient detail to insure that the months of their births (and the year) would be remembered. However the false "church" has covered this up since the fourth century. By simple edict of declaring the Hebrew Calender a heresy.

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Luke 1:5
Zacharias was a Priest of the course of Abia. His wife was Elizabeth.

Luke 1:11, 13, 17
An angel of the Lord, Gabriel, appeared to Zacharias and told him his wife Elizabeth will bear him a son. Gabriel further told him to name him John. This son (John) will go in the spirit and power of Elias and prepare the way for the Lord.

Luke 1:26, 27, 31, 35, 36
Gabriel appeared to Mary, Elizabeth’s cousin in the “sixth” month and told her she will bear Jesus, the Son of God. Gabriel further told her that Elizabeth was in her “sixth” month with child.

Luke 1:39, 40, 56, 57, 59, 60, 64, 65
Mary stayed with Elizabeth for “three” months, until she gave birth to John. When John was only eighth days old, he spoke and praised God. Fear came upon all who heard and his word’s were spread throughout all the hill country of Judea.

In summary, Elizabeth was in her “sixth” month with “John the Baptist” when she heard of Gabriel’s visit with Mary. The sixth month on the Hebrew calendar is “Elul”. Elul falls into our Gregorian calendar as our August-September. Elizabeth bore John in the “ninth” month as recorded. The ninth month on the Hebrew calendar is “Kislev”. Kislev on our calendar is November-December.

“Sagittarius” falls between November 22 to December 20. John the Baptist was born in the sign of Sagittarius.

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The above account of John’s birth also lays out the time frame of Jesus birth.

Luke 1:26, 36
In the sixth month (Elul) Gabriel told Mary she will conceive a son, to be named ‘Jesus’ (Immanuel).

Luke: 1:38-41, 56
When she heard this, Mary went right away to tell Elizabeth and subsequently stayed with her for three months, until Elizabeth bore John, in the month of “Kislev” (November-December).

IF Mary conceived at the time that Gabriel told her she would conceive, then ‘Jesus’ was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the month of “Elul” on the Hebrew calendar (August-September). ‘Jesus’ would therefore have been born in the third month (nine months from “Elul”), which is the month of “Sivan”. “Sivan”, on our Gregorian calendar is May-June.

After Gabriel’s visit, Mary went “in haste” to Elizabeth. In Matthew 1:18-19, Joseph sought to “put her away” because she was pregnant, not by him. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why Mary lived with Elizabeth for three months, (put her away) before returning to Joseph.

Luke 2:1-6
Joseph took Mary to Bethlehem where ‘Jesus’ (Immanuel) was born during the time that Caesar Augustus (The first Roman Emperor), through the Syrian governor Quirinius, decreed that all the world should be taxed and a census took place (historically, spring A.U.C. 747, 748 or 749).

This was the first time in Roman history that such was done for everyone. Prior to this, taxes were only collected from Roman citizens and rulers. All census began and concluded in the spring of the year. . If this (Luke’s account) census began or concluded in Spring, then May-June (Sivan) would be a reasonable assumption for the month of the year this census took place in Bethlehem.

This coincides with Gabriel appearing to Mary nine months earlier, in the sixth month, “Elul”.

Too conclude that ‘Jesus’ was born in the third (3rd) month of the Hebrew Calendar fits squarely on historical record and the Gospel accounts. Therefore, Jesus’ birth occurred in the month of Sivan, which is our May-June. (a spring birth)

At the time of 'Jesus’ birth there was an unusual conjunction of Mars, Jupiter & Saturn in the constellation Pisces (the symbol of Pisces is The Fish). The “wise men” would have been able to witness this conjunction in the constellations. In Astrology, the “Age of Pisces” was begininng in that era approx 2000 years ago. The “wise men” were astrologers and were therefore aware of ‘their time’ being the beginning of a New Age. Today we are living at the end of the “Age of Pisces” and at the dawning of the “Age of Aquarius”.

IF Jesus was born in Sivan, He would have been born under the sign of Gemini (May 21-June 21). Side Note: the symbol of Gemini is The Twins.

Concluding Biblical & Historical Facts:

1) Jesus was born at the dawning of the age of Pisces.
2) There was a conjunction of the 3 major planets (from earth) in Pisces.
3) “Wise men” (star gazers) saw and journeyed to visit Jesus’ at birth.
4) A Roman census was being taken in Bethlehem at the time of Jesus birth.
5) Census’ were taken in spring; months of “Iyar” and “Sivan”, April-June.
6) “Sivan” was nine months after Gabriel appeared to Mary in “Elul”.
7) “Sivan” is the third month of the Hebrew Calendar.

In the 6th month (6-number of man) Gabriel appeared to Mary.
In the 3rd month (3-number of God), Jesus was born.

[Side note: Sivan = Same month Spirit of G-d descended on Mt. Sinai and gave 1st Covenant to Moses.]

http://www.jewfaq.org/calendar.htm
http://www.jewishgen.org/jos/josdates.htm

For the life of me - I cannot remember where I heard or read this, but isn't there some evidence of Jesus's birth taking place around a particular harvest time?

mdonnall2002 wrote:For the life of me - I cannot remember where I heard or read this, but isn't there some evidence of Jesus's birth taking place around a particular harvest time?

Yes, that is the speculative presumption of those who point out that 1) The shepherds were watching their flocks at night. and 2) the Inns were full in Bethlehem.

It was therefore presumed that the birth must have been early fall (Sept/Oct), because it would be too cold in winter to have the flocks out at night, and Fall is the time that people come into the city during the harvest to sell their yields.

However the Gospels clearly give the months involved, as per my article above. And so, the shepherds were watching their flocks at night because it was spring. And the Inns were full because there was a Roman census called and the country folk had to come into town for it.

Edit to add: I wrote the above study in 2005 and saved it to word.doc. At the time I had web-links to support the 1st Jewish Roman census occurred in spring A.U.C. 747, 748 or 749 (Roman calender) But those particular web-links don't work anymore. I'll update them with newer historical websites some other time. But anyone is free to google. I assure you, I checked it against numerous references to be certain, before writing it.

Currently I'm researching Roman history on the three Jewish Wars (AD 70, AD 115-117 and AD 132-136) They provide important references conclusively proving the Wars were Roman interventions to stop the Jewish rebellions caused by the internal religious battles between Jewish factions over Christianity. The Temple/Torah Jews/Sanhedrin and Jewish Aristocracy were trying to stop the spread of Christianity amoung them, and to wipe any memory of it from their history. So vehement were they in their pursuit that Israel became impossible for the Romans to Govern. Hence it took three bloody wars to put the religious in-fighting to rest. After which the Christian religion was freely tolerated throughout the Roman empire. Judaism however was virtually outlawed.

I believe this is an important part of history that needs to be made into a Documentary. The Real Truth about the 1st Century AD.

Extensive and fine work, Jake. I was not doubting your chronicles. I was just injecting something that came to mind when I read it.

@Jake

A good lay out of the births of John the Baptist and Jesus Christ.

I know scripture teaches us that nobody but The Father will know the day nor hour of Jesus Christ return.

Matthew 24:36........"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

Matthew 25:13........"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."

Do you believe we should however know which months of the year Jesus Christ will not return?

Thanks mdonnall and ScaRZ

ScaRZ wrote:@Jake
Do you believe we should however know which months of the year Jesus Christ will not return?

My, what an interesting question.

hmmm

I would say; Not necessarily. But have no theological reason to suspect that. In fact I would not be surprised to learn if we have been given enough info to discern the 'month' of the return. However I haven't read any theories on this yet.

Thinking as I write.....

I was intrigued by your astrology sign post: "Gemini, the twins. Castor is the suffering redeemer, and Pollux is the king. Symbols of the first and second coming of Christ."
I had never seen this said until your post. And wonder why David Flynn stated such?

And I am reminded that the Jewish holy days and festivals have great significance to historical events which they felt commanded to remember them every year. As we know 'Jesus' was crucified on the Eve of Passover - surely not a coincidence. And so I wonder if there might be a holy day or month of historical importance that might coincide with the future Return. And wonder if perhaps in the "end-times" it might be discerned. (ie: Daniel, seal up the book until the time of the end)

I presume you asked me ScaRZ, because you've come across something related to your question. Yes?

Jake Reason wrote:

I presume you asked me ScaRZ, because you've come across something related to your question. Yes?

You and I as well as most that comment here at OMF are not afraid to enter places that most shy away from. I have long wonder why Jesus spoke the words he did or didn't speak. Jesus said (we,angels,nobody)wouldn't know the day nor hour/day or hour of his coming.

We all may not know the day nor hour/day and hour,but can or should we know the month/months on which he will return or year and month/months within that year?

Jesus Christ tells his elect to "Watch". If we are to watch for something we can't see,then why is he telling us to watch?

Those of The World are asleep and aren't watching. The World is in darkness and blind to the coming. The World isn't watching/seeing the signs/heavenly signs.

But what about those who aren't in darkness but are watching?


1 Thessalonians 1-4

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


Yes,the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night upon those asleep,but those watching are not in darkness. The Lord will not come as a thief in the night to them......."They await The Lord."


When the light of The Lord's return is seen by every eye......."The watching and waiting period is over."


Luke 17:24........"For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day."

Revelation 1:7........"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

ScaRZ wrote:

You and I as well as most that comment here at OMF are not afraid to enter places that most shy away from. I have long wonder why Jesus spoke the words he did or didn't speak. Jesus said (we,angels,nobody)wouldn't know the day nor hour/day or hour of his coming.

But what about those who aren't in darkness but are watching?


1 Thessalonians 1-4

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


Yes,the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night upon those asleep,but those watching are not in darkness. The Lord will not come as a thief in the night to them......."They await The Lord."


When the light of The Lord's return is seen by every eye......."The watching and waiting period is over."


Luke 17:24........"For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day."

Revelation 1:7........"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

Good stuff. Thumbs up.... Especially the beginning part

What an inspiring and invigorating conversation this is! I'm still reading over it but I'm so glad I popped in here to catch all of this!

99 wrote:What an inspiring and invigorating conversation this is! I'm still reading over it but I'm so glad I popped in here to catch all of this!

I'm really glad you are here "99". I have missed you and hope you will join in with anything you care to share or comment on.

It's among my favorite reading on the net for how thought provoking it is. I have to sit through bible quotes all the time in the discussions within the patriot community but they don't make half as much sense as the discussion here does.

Thank you Cy and 99.

Continuing on from were ScaRZ left off....

ScaRZ wrote:
You and I as well as most that comment here at OMF are not afraid to enter places that most shy away from. I have long wonder why Jesus spoke the words he did or didn't speak. Jesus said (we,angels,nobody)wouldn't know the day nor hour/day or hour of his coming.

We all may not know the day nor hour/day and hour,but can or should we know the month/months on which he will return .....?

Revelation 1:7........"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

This question is somewhat like, Could anyone have known the day or hour in which 'Jesus' would be crucified?

Allow me to theorize for interest's sake. We can in retrospect, say that 'Jesus" knew when he would be crucified. As the evening before, he shared a "Last Supper" with his Apostles, informing them that the time had come, and then passed the bread and cup, saying "this is my body that is broken for you...", and "this is my blood which is shed for you...".

The day of crucifixion was the eve of Passover. This can not be coincidence, as the significance of the annual Passover was in remembrance of the day in which the Israelites would be freed from bondage and slavery of the Pharaoh of Egypt. And Moses told them to spread the blood of a lamb over the door frame and mantle of their abodes.... (Exodus 11-12)

After-which Moses commanded that this Day be remembered every year forever (Exodus 12). On the 10th day of the month of the 1st month.

Approx 1,400 years later, 'Jesus' became the Passover Lamb. And the Hebrew/Jewish continuance of the Passover sacrifice never occurred again, nor since.

Could there be another biblical connection likened to this, with regards to the second coming of Christ? A Holy Day connection?

Well here is some food for thought....

Leviticus chapter 16. Here we have another Holy Day established by Moses and likewise commanded to be remembered every year forever. It is called Yom Kippur. It is considered to be The Holiest Day of the year for the Jewish people. And the same is said for Passover.

Coincidences...

Yom Kippur is "The Day of Atonement". The day signifying the forgiveness of everyone's sins. It is also "The day of Judgment", as it signifies the day when everyone is judged, as to who will live and who will not.

This also happens on the day of the return of Christ.

"Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."—Matthew 24:30-31

Note the underlined. Then look at the Day of Atonement

Lev 16:2 "and the Lord said to Moses: "Tell Aaron your brother not to come at just any time into the Holy Place inside the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark, lest he die; for I will appear in the cloud above the mercy seat".

And during the second coming 'Jesus' will appear in the clouds.

Lev 16:30 "For on this day shall atonement be made for you, to cleanse you; from all your sins shall ye be clean before the LORD".

On the day of the second coming we will also be made clean before the Lord.

Lev 16:31 "It is a sabbath of solemn rest for you, and you shall afflict your souls. It is a statute forever."

Upon the second coming we then shall also rest forever.

The Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) is on the 10th day of the month of Tishrei. = September-October of our calender.

So is Tishrei the month he'll return? To coincide with The Day of Atonement, just as the crucifixion coincided with the day of Passover? (which note they were also both on the 10th day of the month)

But what of 'Jesus' saying no one knows the time, and not even "the son" knows?

Well, there is a rather obscure incident prior to 'Jesus' evening arrest, trial and crucifixion. And that is, 'Jesus' prayed to the heavenly Father, in essence asking him not to be crucified, if God's will could permit.

Mark 14:36 "And he said , Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will , but what thou wilt."
Luke 22:42 "Saying , Father, if thou be willing , remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done."

As we see here, even 'Jesus" did NOT know for certain which day or hour.

So...Which Tishrei, which Day of Atonement, will Christ return?
No one knows.

Powerful, Jake. Profound.

And so it shall be....

Like a thief in night...from the clouds....and gather His elect....Even He did not know the hour....

As you would say -

This is a Red Letter Day for you

There is no doubting from scripture we won't know the day and hour,that is very clear. I also see it very clear that the elect will know it is very,very close. They will be watching and awaiting the coming of The Bridegroom. They will not be caught sleeping as The World is overtaken by the likes of a thief in the night.

KJV

Matthew 24:33........"So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."

ESV

Matthew 24:33........"So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates."

Many take the route of a secret rapture taking place. All believers will be snatched out of here and nobody has any idea when this event will take place. They say this is why Jesus Christ will come as a thief in the night. Every other person is left behind.

I do not take this view,I'm just laying it out.

OK,now that the secret rapture has taken place the tribulation begins. It all really comes down to which secret rapture theory you believe. There may be a full seven years of tribulation plus great tribulation or only three and one half years of great tribulation. Oh! and yes there are other types of raptures but I will just leave it where it is.


How can it be that whether there is or isn't a secret rapture the (elect,believers,saved,called out ones)who are on earth during this period of time wouldn't have it down to at least the final years before the return of Jesus Christ?......."We know through scripture that there will be elect here on earth no matter the case of a rapture or a no rapture stance."

I'm not putting anyone down,I'm only laying out my thoughts.

I agree 100% that nobody will know the day or hour,but the (elect,believers,saved,called out ones)of those final years should know it is very,very close.


I see it very much like the old Jewish wedding custom. Once the man either saw the woman he wanted to marry and was approved by his father, or the father of the man picked the woman for his son to marry,the young man then went to speak to her father.

If the young man was accepted he would make a covenant with the bride. It was just like drawing up a contract. The young man paid a price for her hand in marriage...(Money,livestock,..ect.)

He then left and went back to his fathers house and began building a room onto the house. It could take as long as a year to complete the work and his father must approve the room before he could return for his bride.

The bride never knew the exact time when the bridegroom was coming,and the bridegroom didn't know until his father approved the room.

The bride would need to be ready,because tradition was that the bridegroom would come at night.

Thank you mdonnall.

addendum:

ScaRZ reminds us that the scriptures are very clear that no one would know the day or hour, and consequently Christians are to take this literally.

The scriptures are also very clear that Passover and The Day of Atonement are to be remembered forever. Should we then consequently take this literally?

Well....thinking out loud...

"forever" is a long time! And would not this imply that "forever" would included the time beyond a "new heaven and new earth - behold all things pass away and all things become new."? (Revelation 21)

What is being remembered?
Passover = curse against the 1st born male children of Egypt. Place blood on door mantle and the spirit "Passes over" those in that household, children saved from plague.

Day of Atonement = Israelites were granted atonement for the sin of making a Golden Calf, while Moses was away receiving the Ten Commandments.

Should these be remembered forever? I would find that a rather obscure and peculiar thing to remember after all things pass away and all things become new.

However, I would think the crucifixion and resurrection WOULD be something to remember forever. 'Jesus' was symbolically the Passover lamb, and it happened during the remembrance of Passover. And so then, remembering this would fulfill scripture that Passover would be remembered forever.

But what of the Day of Atonement? Why would it be remembered forever? A Golden Calf!?

I suggest it quite plausible that the Return of Christ and the reaping of the earth, WOULD be something remembered forever, even after all things pass away and all things become new.

And if Christ returned on the Day of Atonement, then it would be so. That the Day of Atonement would be remembered forever, thus fulfilling scripture.