Yes, 99...... 2

First topic message reminder :

It looks like we’re running up,against the 40 page allotment from the last thread......

And I’m still with Tulsi, unless there is a better suggestion......

Look at me and see yourself.

dan wrote:smelly,

All your chatter about non thought is delusional posturing, at best, and plain evil, at worst.

Yes, it is very beneficial for us to clear and recenter ourselves........ to take a deep breath......

But you take this folk remedy and push it to comedic extremes....... you flail yourself, and the rest of us, with it.

It is tiresome.  Please go somewhere else to preach no thought.  
(cont......)

You keep thinkin GrandPa and the fool will keep on dancin.

Thank you, smelly.........


Cy,

I’m not quite sure what your lengthy screed is on about, so I’ll just have to guess.......

You are opposed to the small world, in that it appears to be placing limits on human progress.  

I suggest that, quite to the contrary, the small world hypothesis is the only cosmology that places no limits on human progress.  

Now, there may be disagreement on how to measure human progress.  

I am opposed to Utilitarianism, which measures our welfare as the greatest good for the greatest number.  

That makes sense only if there is a fixed total.  You, Cy, on the other hand, are suggesting that the total could be, and perhaps should be, infinite...... that there should be absolutely no limits to growth, certainly not in any numerical sense.  

Am I correct that this is our fundamental disagreement?  

And this points to the fundamental problem with ideologues......

Ideologues are, preternaturally, unwilling to examine the basis of their beliefs.  This is the crucial problem with fundamentalisms of all stripes, be they sectarian or secular.  

So, Cy, this being the Open Minds forum, and all that, I could envision this as being a safe space, where all are invited to examine our navels...... our foundational assumptions, together.  


12:20.........

So, anyway, since no one asks, I needn’t stand on ceremony...... I’ll go right ahead and examine my navel......

You’ll see how an expert does it.......

My only background was Unitarianism...... where they believe that there is, at most, one god.  

Otherwise I was interested in astronomy and meteorology, along with a vague notion that I labeled..... transcendental pantheism.

Then came Sputnik..... and the rush was on......

But I forgot to mention Donald Menzel..... my dad’s hero at Harvard.  My mother read to me from the Harvard astronomy leather bound series, after Grimms tales.  Remember that Don and Dan were on the academic steering committee, together, during the war, and each had a big secret they couldn’t tell the other.  Don’s secret was bigger, so I became a physics wannabe.  

In graduate school, I burned out....... something was missing..... something transcendental.  

The irony was that what was missing was the Anthropic Principle, which was hiding right under my nose at princeton.   It took seven years of wandering in the hinterlands, however, to find it, via Jack Sarfatti.  

So, Cy, that is a cause and effect explanation of how I wound up on your Forum.  

I believe there is also a more transcendental explanation..... not unlike yours.......

But...... hold on a second..... we’ve neglected the navel gazing....

I’d have to come back to foundational Cartesian assumption.... I think, therefore I am...... foundational to modern civilization.  

It was almost wiping the slate clean.  

But, it turns out, in retrospect, that René was a little bit chicken.  

Siddhartha took the final step, and questioned his own existence, which is the actual basis of modernity....... question everything..... question the kitchen sink.  

This is almost exactly where we find smelly, if you turn it around...... ask no questions...... don’t think...... Mama don’t allow no thinking around here.  

So, actually, smelly is more true to Siddhartha than was Siddhartha.  

If there is nothing to think about, why think?  It will only get you and everyone else into endless argument and confusion.  

smelly, bless his heart, does have a point...... when you stop to think about it......


1:30........

Thinking comes naturally to a lot of folks...... if we are to go against that nature, we need some pretty good excuse....... maybe besides just smelly’s opinion...... but smelly doesn’t agree...... and the rest is history.  

So, unless you’re congenitally inclined to not think, you’re stuck with the likes of mama Cy, and the little chicken.

Over many years, I’ve come to agree with Cy..... we don’t really belong here...... we didn’t really come from here. This is our home away from Home.

Cy believes she was sent on a mission. Others believe that we just got thrown here.

Me......? I guess I’m a cosmic solipsist...... which is kinda where you end up, if you suffer from the monomania of Monism. Hey, it happens to the best of us.



(cont........)

Bahahaha

I have thought enough to fill a dozen heads.

The peace and quiet is only interrupted by my wife.

I accept this too.

You could look at it this way, be thankful you aren’t a clear channel.

Then you would have less slack time and beer.

A true genius can’t turn it off.

They have to ‘get it out.’

At one point, I felt I had to get this out.

Naaaa.

There is nothing here.

I didn’t say don’t think, I suggested not thinking driven by your voice.

Because you nor I know being.

We are being.

You don’t have to think, you are thought.

You are action.

You are will.

You don’t limit it.

You act.

This is a developed skill.

You learn to have faith in one thing, this intuition thang.

Spontaneous action is freshest.

It’s a collaboration with the things around you.

It’s usually gonna flow and you will sway and bend as needed.

Unless you are unbalanced or rigid or filled with beliefs.

Fake it til you make it.

Slack on.

Thank you, smelly...... I don’t mind if I do..... slack on.....

Whenever smelly comes around, I know it’s time to break out the wine......

smelly and I collaborate, don’t we smelly..... we kinda have to, because we invented each other, didn’t we?  

We must be the primordial twins...... Castor and Pollux.  

When we...... when one of us woke up and discovered ourself to be lost in space..... lost in the abyss.  

Only one thing to do...... invent an imaginary playmate...... and, mind you, this was before we discovered girls...... or maybe we should say..... before girls discovered us.  Isn’t that right, smelly?  

Anyhow..... well, so here we are, each with too much time on our hands, realizing that time hadn’t been invented, yet.

How do we pass the time, but tell stories.....

And, if we have all the time in the world, we might as well think up the best possible story.  

Hey, that’s what it’s all about......

smelly doesn’t understand that I can’t tell a lie...... or maybe it’s not a lie, that I invented the best possible story....... hey, somebody had to.  

But, you’d think there might be a little competition.  

But competition is kinda stressful....... who needs it?  

I’m a lazy bastard, and I sure don’t.  

Hey, if I wanted competition, I’d have to go out and invent it, and I’m too lazy to do that.  

But isn’t there always something to worry about?  

We might always be blindsided, cosmically speaking.  

Some other monomaniac might come along and do a hostile takeover.  

Well, sports fans, there is only one way to prevent the hostile takeover....... you have to invent the best possible Metanarrative.  

The only way to take over the best possible Metanarrative is to invent a better one.  

Aren’t I being just a tad sanguine?  

Why wouldn’t an aggressive bad guy come along and invent a worse story....... just to show who’s boss?  

Oh dear, gosh, I never thought about them apples.......

Let me think, if that’s ok with smelly.......

I think I have the answer....... I could never defend against the cosmic bully, without a little help from my friends.  

And bullies usually have trouble...... in the friends department.  

So, the Metanarrative turns out to be a no brainer....... doesn’t it, smelly and Cy?  

Now, what.......?  

It’s all over but the shouting...... hallelujah.....

Well I've heard there was a secret chord
That David played and it pleased the Lord
But you don't really care for music, do you?
Well it goes like this:
The fourth, the fifth, the minor fall and the major lift
The baffled king composing Hallelujah

Maybe, sports fans, we’ve found the secret chord....... Ommm......

We’ll have to get a smelly opinion.......

But smelly’s not answering.

Frankly, my dear, there’s no question..... there has never been a lick of competition.  

Ok, smelly chimes in...... the cosmic Bully is just Bull.  

There is no competition.  

This is the best possible story...... for all Eternity, unless a better one comes along....... which doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

So, sports fans, we’ll just have to get over it...... get used to being the best possible story.



(cont.......)

I have nothing to lose playing like a kid.

I’m not coming back this way.

Playing seems to be the best response to being..

To the point of absurdity.

As a matter of fact I think I found the secret to being.

You have to to find your spin.



My poetic way to say, we find our bend.

I’ll always grab your hands and spin anyone who lets me grab them.

I’ll spin you so fast, you will not ever be still enough to face in one direction.

I only go in one direction...spinning, straight on.

Straight Spinner

Pretty wise, eh?

Wisdom comes to say, relax now little kid.

And then I sleep and then I’m up spinning again.

I almost could write a book with my own take on all of this called ‘Spinning’.

Spinning round
The central pole
Where we stop
No one knows
Should we slow
Or should we
Go Go Go

See, smelly is still a kid.



When you show a kid reality, they may jump on your head.

A perfectly normal kid reaction.

It’s all spinning.

I am not giving anything to Dan.

He will have to dance with the Cosmic Bull.

He will have to win in the ring.

The secret is the Bull is only as real as we make it.

Those horns hurt because we think they do.

I spin around the Bull.

I leap over the Bull.

When it touches me, it spins off.

But I can’t grab the Bull by the horns.

And I must stop long enough to let the bull connect with my sword.

But the moment will come only once.

I have to be ready.

I wonder what Dan can do with the Bull.

While he’s been in the stands thinking, I’ve been dancing in the arena.

Ole!

How about put some skin in the game Dan.

I risked my sanity and lost it, but I realized Love.

What did you give up, or haven’t you paid to get in the ring?

You have to pay off the promoter.

Maybe everyone in the stands already paid, it’s their choice how close to the Bull they get, how much they risk.

When I realized I had nothing to gain or lose...

I began to spinz.

Well, smelly, I would always ask who was in charge.  

I only ever got the same answer....... me of little faith.

Being thrown under the bus, was probably me being tossed out of the airplane....... let’s see the color of the parachute.

It does have a definite odor about it.



(cont......)

I guess you will have to ask the promoter.

Well, if I’m Castor, I must be pretty good at self promotion..... good enough, at least, for gummint work.

Jack calculates the probabilistic appearances with a pencil.

He knows how to spin though too.

I know the same reality he calculates intuitively.

My equations are encoded intuitively in my motions, in my bee dance.

I just have to show up.

Follow the flow.

Go with the spin.

Feel the probabilities.

Stare the Bull down.  

Then...POW!

Horn to the gut.

Ouch!

This thang ain’t kiddin around.

It wants to kill you.

Well, the cosmic Bull, Taurus, is a real taskmaster.

That’s what I hear, anyway.

Castor and Pollux appear as St. Elmo’s Fire to sailors.

To the sailors here for sure on the masthead of OMF.

“The luminous plasma is created by a corona discharge from a sharp or pointed object in a strong electric field in the atmosphere (such as those generated by thunderstorms or created by a volcanic eruption).”

Have we not appeared here on the eve of an eruption, amidst a raging Tempest, within a highly charged electric field?

All homosexual allusions aside, you have thrust the point of your mind into the sky, the electric field,  and I, partly the luminous force, have manifested with you.

That kind of describes one of the most wonderful experiences on Earth.

We have invoked Zeus in a tamed down form.

Does he Light the way now?!

Where are the probabilities taking our little ship?!

“The Dioscuri were regarded as helpers of humankind and held to be patrons of travellers and of sailors in particular, who invoked them to seek favourable winds. They characteristically intervened at the moment of crisis, aiding those who honoured or trusted them.”

How’s that for reinforcing our respective delusions

But damn, this epically poetic, you can feel the water swell here.

Like an epic wavy parachute.

Maybe that’s why the BPW works.

It’s just a big bouncy house.

Not too shabby, smelly.

So, that’s what everyone has to realize....... they’re living in the best possible world..... until a better one comes along.  

In other words, smelly and I are playing Billy goat, Gruff.....

It's I! The big Billy Goat Gruff ," said the billy goat, who had an ugly hoarse voice of his own.

"Now I 'm coming to gobble you up," roared the troll.

Well, come along! I've got two spears,
And I'll poke your eyeballs out at your ears;
I've got besides two curling-stones,
And I'll crush you to bits, body and bones.

But I do have a sneaking suspicion....... you might have to wait for a helluva long time........

You see..... you’re gonna have a real tough time one upping the Princess...... isn’t that right, Aaron?  

I think maybe donny and Vladimir were thinking they were gonna play Castor and Pollux.  I think they have another think coming.  

I’d like to see the color of their parachutes.  

I think maybe they got in over their heads...... gasp.....

I believe that we have seen the color of Jeffrey’s parachute.  It was rather sad looking.  

donny can run away from Jeff.  He’s gonna have a tougher time running away from Roy and alex...... you can run donny, but maybe you can’t hide.  

I think it might be donny’s shit eating grin that will be tough to hide.

Grin donny, grin. You might have a tough time keeping up with smiley smith.

I mean, really...... it’s nollo contendere.....



(cont........)

Sigh.  You're right you didn't understand it. Never mind then.  Walking back to my own space.  Cy

We believe what we want to believe.

We believe what we need to believe.

It is worth the attempt Cy.

Note to self: Don't forget to bring your pen.

Maynard wrote:
Alright then, picture this if you will:
10 to 2 AM, X, Yogi DMT, and a box of Krispy Kremes, in my "need to know" pose, just outside of Area 51.
Contemplating the whole "chosen people" thing with just a flaming stealth banana split the sky like one would hope but never really expect to see in a place like this.
Cutting right angle donuts on a dime and stopping right at my Birkenstocks, and me yelping...
Holy fucking shit!
Then the X-Files being, looking like some kind of blue-green Jackie Chan with Isabella Rossellini lips and breath that reeked of vanilla Chig Champa,
Did a slow-mo Matrix descent out of the butt end of the banana vessel and hovered above my bug-eyes, my gaping jaw, and my sweaty L. Ron Hubbard upper lip and all I could think was: "I hope Uncle Martin here doesn't notice that I pissed my fuckin' pants."
So light in his way,
Like an apparition,
He had me crying out,
"Fuck me,
It's gotta be,
Deadhead Chemistry,
The blotter got right on top of me,
Got me seein' E-motherfuckin'-T!"
And after calming me down with some orange slices and some fetal spooning, E.T. revealed to me his singular purpose.
He said, "You are the Chosen One, the One who will deliver the message. A message of hope for those who choose to hear it and a warning for those who do not."
Me. The Chosen One?
They chose me!!!
And I didn't even graduate from fuckin' high school.
You better.
You better.
You better.
You better listen.
Then he looked right through me
With somniferous almond eyes.
Don't even know what that means
Must remember to write it down.
This is so real.
Like the time Dave floated away.
See my heart is pounding,
'Cause this shit never happens to me.
Can't breathe, right now!
It was so real.
Like I woke up in Wonderland.
All sort of terrifying.
And I don't wanna be all alone when I tell this story.
And can anyone tell me why
You all sound like Peanut's parents
Will I ever be coming down?
This is so real.
Finally it's my lucky day.
See my heart is racing,
'Cause this shit never happens to me.
Can't breathe, right now!
You believe me, don't you?
And this wasn't all in my head.
See they took me by the hand and invited me right in,
Then they showed me something.
I don't even know where to begin.
Strapped down my bed. Feet cold and eyes red.
Can't remember what they said.
God damn. Shit the bed!
Overwhelmed as one would be, placed in my position.
Such a heavy burden now to be the one.
Born to bear and read to all
The details of our ending.
To write it down for all the world to see.
But I forgot my pen,
Shit the bed again,
Typical.
Strapped down my bed. Feet cold and eyes red.
Sunkist and sudafed, gyroscopes and infrared.
Can't remember what they said.
God damn. Shit the bed!
I can't remember what they said to me.
Can't remember what they said to make me out to be a hero!
Can't remember what they said.
Bob help me.
Can't remember what they said.
Don't know.
Won't know.
God damn shit the bed!

Cy,

We both suppose that there is a Creator.

My starting impulse is to give our Creator the benefit of the doubt by supposing that she created the best possible world.  This might not be the case, but it’s not being so would render the world unintelligible.  Instead of being the coCreators, we become alienated, redundant interlopers.  Instead of being the chrysalis, we become some sort of cancer.  

But, Cy, I don’t think you have ever provided us with a big picture.  You appear to be giving us a piece of an infinite jigsaw puzzle.  

You’re not a big picture person.  I am.  

You are very concerned with your background in Ireland.  

However, at the same time, you recognize that you are here on a global mission.  

It’s not at all clear how the different pieces are supposed to fit together.  

Because you are presenting us with a potentially infinite puzzle, there is no guarantee that there will be any fitting together.  

Also, to suppose that we might be coCreators is to subscribe to the philosophy of personalism, which is to suppose that Creation is for, by and about persons....... that whoever happens to be the Creator is able to identify with the sapient Creatures...... there is no reason to suppose that we could not sit down and have a beer with the Creator, as a coCreator.  Being Creator is something of an arbitrary and honorific/ad-hoc title.  

Every person has an infinite capacity to be One with God....... a capacity that is exercised at the best possible time in each one of the 10^10 loops of the cosmic Soul.  

Every person always has direct access to the One mind, but usually we are not aware and/or do not choose to exercise the option.  


12:10........

And, Cy, you have expressed considerable misgivings with respect to any limitations on our quantitative growth.  

At the same time, you have not provided us with any guidance on whether or not we are to be supplanted by a superhuman species.  

If humans are to be superseded or otherwise rendered obsolete, then all bets about the best possible world are off the table.  




(cont......)

Dan wrote:wk,

You are in for a big surprise........

Yay:cheers:  I love surprises.

Good thing as I find no one here particularly prescient.

And I must say, I have always been disappointed by those that thought they were.

Would it not be a bust if we could all go to the end of the book and read the last chapter...?

Can you or any of us really know, is this really a discussion or just an, illusion?

I still maintain we are all bonkers.  LOL if it just me. (my hommage to manga) bwahahaha

What'll we do tonight, Brain?

wk,

Do you have any doubt about there being a Source....... a Source with which we can be personally acquainted?

The only alternative is the Big Bang, which concept reins unchallenged, which is the foundation of modern culture.

You might have noticed that I’m not a Big Banger.

Unless you explicitly counter that cosmology, everyone will assume that are going along with it.

I’m not going along.

The Big Bang cosmology is the antithesis to personalism.

Cy, bless her heart, has apparently decided to go along with the flow of this overriding worldview, while adding the ETH to the mix.

This leaves everything in an open and confused state. It is hard for us to conceive of an alternative.



(cont........)

Meanwhile the bomb drops where there is nothing but carnage all around us but I can imagine that you guys will still be talking about 
"To be or not to be" buried 
under the rubble.

Go down with the rubble and float away in a bubble.

Maybe there is no source.

Personally I do and am, I don't see a whole lot of conflict with any concept.

I can see relevance for any concept that any person can conceive form their personal perspective.