The Bible, UFOs, ET and the Ancients Part 3

First topic message reminder :

Hi ScarZ,

Thank you for posting this information. Does any of David Flynn's material give any idea to the time-frames for the early events or historical figures that his research indicated?

ScaRZ wrote:

mdonnall2002 wrote:@Scarz:

Do you also hold the same belief as Jake that if the Sons of God were here today, in our midst - Affecting and influencing the minds of man and confusing us as scripture claims took place in the past - they would be seen as NEGATIVE forces?

They are here today....."They never have been removed." One day they will be removed.

Babel means confusion. Confuse the mind,control the mind. Once the mind is controlled all members of the body follow.

These Sons of God are negative forces and have been for a very long time. These still have power,that we struggle against. Yes,they very much influence the minds of men. I believe they are much like a puppet master......"Moving the strings that control the puppet."


Ephesians 6:12........"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."


Our real struggle comes from those behind the curtain. We may not see them with physical eyes but with spiritual eyes we can truly comprehend they are there. These we struggle against are not only demons,many are much more powerful than any lowly demon. I believe demons are at the very bottom of the totem pole.

This line of thinking would tend close the door on the possiblilty of True Sons of God interacting with man today in beneficial ways to countrer the darker seeds strew across the Earth. Are you so prepared to close the door on this posibility like most Christians?

How would those elect be nurtured/tutored, if that was the case? Do you think they 'know' who they are? And who would believe them if they professed such mental health nonsense today..

Things to consider.

Do not forget that the confusion was employed to acheive HIS/GODs ends. It was not to punish man. HE commanded it, decended with the 70 princes, and moved/seperated/scattered them across the globe. God needed baby sitters/shepards apparently.

mdonnall2002,you are attempting to place words in my mouth I never said.

That is the reason I wrote "These" Sons of God. I was only talking about the ones who were given authority at The Tower of Babel.

I never once said anything about all Sons of God are in the back pocket of darkness.

mdonnall2002 wrote:@Scarz:

Do you also hold the same belief as Jake that if the Sons of God were here today, in our midst - Affecting and influencing the minds of man and confusing us as scripture claims took place in the past - they would be seen as NEGATIVE forces?

I agree with ScaRZ' reply.

There is a spiritual hierarchy. Just as we have Generals with Commanders, Colonels and Captains below them. The "70" we are talking about, would be like Generals. The Bible calls them Princes.

I believe there are even people living today who are like "The Prince of Tyre". Living in symbiotic spiritual connection with an Angelic Prince. Not possessed, but symbiotic. Although I believe that the required circumstances very rarely arise wherein a single person, to be that useful to an Angelic Prince. The person would need to have Pharaoh-like earthly power. Angelic Princes usually remain ethereal Overlords.

I also believe there are many Heavenly Angels here who interact with man in beneficial ways. I know most Protestants don't give much credence to this. However I believe there are numerous examples of extreme instances, whereas an angelic intervention seems the most likely explanation.

We also have the Holy Spirit.

mdonnall2002 wrote:Things to consider.

Do not forget that the confusion was employed to achieve HIS/GODs ends. It was not to punish man. HE commanded it, decended with the 70 princes, and moved/seperated/scattered them across the globe. God needed baby sitters/shepards apparently.

I needed a baby sitter when I was young. You know, just in case the big bad wolf huffed and puffed the door down, while Mommy and Daddy were away.

We are not the designers of Creation, nor can we fathom all its contingencies.

And certainly some of those contingencies require "tough love".
How far should "tough love" go, until it is no longer considered a form of love?

The Creator's plan took it so far, that He limited our potential mortal life to about 100 years. That's pretty "tough love", don't you think?

Have you ever wondered why, mdonnall?

I'm trying to understand your view

Jake Reason wrote:

mdonnall2002 wrote:@Scarz:

Do you also hold the same belief as Jake that if the Sons of God were here today, in our midst - Affecting and influencing the minds of man and confusing us as scripture claims took place in the past - they would be seen as NEGATIVE forces?

I agree with ScaRZ' reply.

There is a spiritual hierarchy. Just as we have Generals with Commanders, Colonels and Captains below them. The "70" we are talking about, would be like Generals. The Bible calls them Princes.

I believe there are even people living today who are like "The Prince of Tyre". Living in symbiotic spiritual connection with an Angelic Prince. Not possessed, but symbiotic. Although I believe that the required circumstances very rarely arise wherein a single person, to be that useful to an Angelic Prince. The person would need to have Pharaoh-like earthly power. Angelic Princes usually remain ethereal Overlords.

I also believe there are many Heavenly Angels here who interact with man in beneficial ways. I know most Protestants don't give much credence to this. However I believe there are numerous examples of extreme instances, whereas an angelic intervention seems the most likely explanation.

We also have the Holy Spirit.

Very well said Jake.

I was about to add the Holy Spirit in the conversation. It wasn't until after Jesus Christ ascension that the Holy Spirit was a teacher,a guide,and a comfort on a large scale. Yes,the Holy Spirit came upon a very small elect and that was it.

Does this mean The Father won't,or doesn't use angelic intervention anymore?......."Certainly not,The Father can and will do what is needed,or what pleases him." All anyone needs to do is read The Book of Revelation and it is full of angelic intervention "From The Father".


Here is a great example of angelic intervention coming from The Father with The Everlasting Gospel being preached in the last days.

Revelation 14:6-7

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

The Everlasting Gospel is preached and then another angel comes into the picture saying......"And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."[Revelation 14:8]

Before Babylon The Great utterly falls what message is preached to her......."Come out of her, my people" [Revelation 18:4]

Jake Reason wrote:

Jake Reason wrote:
And so it is, that we were birthed into the dark abode of Satan the Devil, so that we may overcome and be raised up to be Sons of God.

"Have the scriptures not told you, that I have told you, You are Gods! (advanced beings)"
Immanuel said

It is difficult to create an earth, then birth and raise Elohim.

Continuing on...

A view that further helps me to understand the 70 Angels meddling and their apparent sanction by the Creator, is the metaphor of a shepherd and a lamb ran astray.

We all know that one: A shepherd leaves his flock to find a single lamb to bring it back into the fold. It's a lovely metaphor. We all like such stories. It's simple, easy to understand, helps us forget our daily sorrows, and reminds of us love and caring, of which we all yearn.

However, not all is well. Not only on earth, neither in the heavens! We all know something is wrong, but we do not fully understand what it all is. There is suffering everywhere, and everything dies! Yet we can contemplate wondrous heavenly abodes that knows not any suffering, nor death, but rather Peace that passes all understanding, Joy, eternal abundance and Love. How can this be?

The Bible is an inspirational metanarrative, from Creator to creature, that struggles to bring understanding to these dichotomies.

Something happened long ago in the Heavens. Before the foundation of the earth. Simply stated, Something broke and needs fixing.

The Biblical metanarrative gives glimpses of this. The earth is as it is, man is as man is, because it is required. It's in the design, the fabric of our existence, that everything is constantly needing fixing. Why is it so? because we are intended to be The Fixers.

Jesus taught his Apostles to teach; Don't you know, that you will judge the Angels?(the term used was equivalent to mentor not judge)

Yes, even those 70 Angels we're talking about here. We will be their Judges.

"Jesus' taught in numerous ways, that we have been given the power to rebuke Satan the Devil himself!

I can attest, indeed we can do this. And in fear and trembling they depart. even from little 'ol us.

The Biblical metanarrative and the teaching of 'Jesus' is that; We are children of the Most High.

One of the best ways to teach one how to fix things, is to give them lots of broken things. And just when they think they have figured out how to fix everything, give them something more complex to fix.

It all starts with:
this is the way we tie our shoes,
this is the way to brush our teeth,
this is the way we comb our hair.

Progressing up to; This is the way we become Elohim. (the term used was "complex" - meaning more spiritually soul/body developed)

------------

Now then, what's in it for the 70 Angels. What do they get out of this?

I suspect it has something to do with the 'shepherd and a lamb that ran astray'. G-d would so love his Angels as well. Even those imprisoned on a lonely little planet. Maybe this is their repentance chance. Maybe they need this lesson in suffering to bring them back into the fold. Perhaps not all will be lost, some will be found.

The above in red is what I basically heard (concept-wise) growing up. The wording was exactly the same and I've adjusted it a bit in a few parenthesis to show the meaning I was taught.

Basically those who have been mentors for young peoples in our area of the universe present/past are approaching a state where they have learned and achieved what they need to to advanced to the next step in All Being. This will leave a void and leave many other young races extremely vulnerable...that there has and will continue to be competition over that void but that the replacements for those people (mentors) have already been identified. That 'identification' is what the Jesus appearance was about, mankind's potential. But that potential is only guaranteed by our own responsibility and success as a race beginning with our own world and neighborhood and our emerging relationship with those around us. We have to want it; we have to remember who we are.

At some point in the future if we continue to be successful in our development and spiritual evolution, that is the purpose that awaits us. That position as a benefit to those who are only beginning their journey and as a continuation of our own development until we too achieve what is needed for the next step.

Are people ready or interested in such a thing? We still have so many problems to solve here amid ourselves. But can knowing or having an inkling that something like that awaits us, will that small spark make the difference in the choices we make today? Good question, huh?

Cy

@mdonnall2002

These Sons of God who were given the nations of earth may have had good intentions at first but things did change. Did their power go to their heads? How much was Satan (The Adversary) in the mix? Did mankind influence them to drift into sin? Or was it that they were already part of the rebellion?

Any way you look at it they became the gods of these nations and The Father didn't want his nation to have anything to do with them or their gods. The LORD warned his nation about their practices over and over.


Deuteronomy 4:19........"And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, [even] all the host of heaven shouldest be driven to WORSHIP THEM, and SERVE THEM, which the LORD thy God hath [DIVIDED] unto [ALL NATIONS] under the whole heaven."(See how God divided all the other nations but the Hebrews were to be his nation.)

The LORD is warning them(the Hebrews) not to start worshiping the other gods of these nations.


Further examples of what these nations were doing.


Deuteronomy 18:9-14

When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.

There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,

Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.



When reading Leviticus 20:23-26, prior to the entrance of The Father's people into the promised land of Cannan,The Father explained his attitude towards the nations ruled by the gods,as well as their status as The Father's nation.

Leviticus 20:23-26

And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.

Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean.

And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.



If you remember the giants(Nephilim)began popping up among several of these nations. Some of these nations began mixing with these Nephilim.

Jake Reason wrote:
I needed a baby sitter when I was young. You know, just in case the big bad wolf huffed and puffed the door down, while Mommy and Daddy were away.

We are not the designers of Creation, nor can we fathom all its contingencies.

And certainly some of those contingencies require "tough love".
How far should "tough love" go, until it is no longer considered a form of love?

The Creator's plan took it so far, that He limited our potential mortal life to about 100 years. That's pretty "tough love", don't you think?

Have you ever wondered why, mdonnall?

I'm trying to understand your view

Yes, I have wondered. I have wondered a great many other things as well.

I labored under the assumption that most, except a small minority of Christians, hold the belief that the apparent visitors we hear about today are/would be ‘negative’ forces - Fallen angels, if you will. That is the Majority opinion from my inquiries.

When God descended with the 70 they were His aids in confusing at Babel. They were not the Fallen ones - they were his Chosen ones. Why is it so hard to imagine a time in which it would occur again - the confusion and affecting the minds of man from seeing the Truth behind the veil?

I suppose it all depends on how your gaze out into existence, Jake.

When man had longevity stripped from him, Pre-flood during the Sons of God seeing the Eve as fair, was it truly punishment?

Gen 6:
2 And it came to pass when men began to be numerous upon the earth, and daughters were born to them, 3 that the sons of God having seen the daughters of men that they were beautiful, took to themselves wives of all whom they chose. 4 And the Lord God said, My Spirit shall certainly not remain among these men for ever, because they are flesh, but their days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 5 Now the giants were upon the earth in those days; and after that when the sons of God were wont to go in to the daughters of men, they bore children to them, those were the giants of old, the men of renown.

God certainly allowed over 500 years of life even after the incident in the Garden of Eden when we were thrust from innocence. Question this: Why was Eve offered from the Tree of Knowledge vs the Tree of Life? Would one be more valuable than the other? Are we to assume Knowledge more valuable than an eternal fleshy Life?

God did not remove our years until the Sons of God came down and began to mix with the Adam and Eve. Is it conceivable that He did this in anger and for our protection? Too much knowledge, too fast, without the spirit to sustain it?

So, I do not see our numbered years in fleshy form as punishment. I see it as an accelerated course into reconnecting with our source of creation, and to potentially, limit the damage we can do to one another here, awash in the adolescent emotions Small Gods must partake, including myself.

It was an act of compassion - “Tough love.”

And so, here I am, always ‘wondering’.

Yet, my eyes refuse to adopt – ‘The Way’ of a group – when the group has no way. I realize this may not be theologically sound, (from the academia/experts on God – as presumptuous as this sounds) but spiritually there is only one path into the fold - it’s personal.

Yes, always the black sheep, with his head ‘in the clouds’. Still, I am here.

As a side note:
Source - NIMH (Nat. Institue of Mental Health)

"Mental disorders are common in the United States and internationally. An estimated 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older — about one in four adults — suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year.1 When applied to the 2004 U.S. Census residential population estimate for ages 18 and older, this figure translates to 57.7 million people.2 Even though mental disorders are widespread in the population, the main burden of illness is concentrated in a much smaller proportion — about 6 percent, or 1 in 17 — who suffer from a serious mental illness.1 In addition, mental disorders are the leading cause of disability in the U.S. and Canada.3 Many people suffer from more than one mental disorder at a given time. Nearly half (45 percent) of those with any mental disorder meet criteria for 2 or more disorders, with severity strongly related to comorbidity."

You doubt biblical times were any different? Tongue and cheek, of course, and do forgive me in advance.

mdonnall2002 wrote:
I labored under the assumption that most, except a small minority of Christians, hold the belief that the apparent visitors we hear about today are/would be ‘negative’ forces - Fallen angels, if you will. That is the Majority opinion from my inquiries.

When God descended with the 70 they were His aids in confusing at Babel. They were not the Fallen ones - they were his Chosen ones. Why is it so hard to imagine a time in which it would occur again - the confusion and affecting the minds of man from seeing the Truth behind the veil?

They are Fallen ones. But agree they were chosen ones. Satan was permitted in Eden with predestined purpose.

Prophecy tells us, a strong delusion will be sent by G-d. I am persuaded this will include Watcher/Visitors. But I do no agree with the majority of Christians that the visitors are predominately fallen angels and demons. I believe that the predominate Christian view will enhance the "strong delusion". I believe Christians who fear Fallen Angels and Demons, sin in their fear. Oh so little faith.

When man had longevity stripped from him, Pre-flood during the Sons of God seeing the Eve as fair, was it truly punishment?

No punishment. Controlled Learning environment, as you have expressed.

Yet, my eyes refuse to adopt – ‘The Way’ of a group – when the group has no way. I realize this may not be theologically sound, (from the academia/experts on God – as presumptuous as this sounds) but spiritually there is only one path into the fold - it’s personal.

We're on the same page here.

As a side note:
Source - NIMH (Nat. Institue of Mental Health)

"Mental disorders are common in the United States and internationally.

According to Dr. Murray Banks, approx 80% of the world population is Neurotic(16%), Deeply Neurotic(16%), Profoundly Neurotic(16%) or Psychotic(32%). It is predominately for this cause that mentally sound newborns who grow up in such, emulate their community norms. They're out numbered.

C'est La Vie!

It appears our views have much in common, mdonnall

Knowing good and evil comes with a price. I see it much like the conscience that resides in man. Before we attempt an evil or rebellious act it kicks in to alert us,but the rest is up to us. When we know good and evil there's no excuse,no back door,nobody or nothing else to blame our decisions on. We know what a good act is and what a bad act is.

The big question is can we ever get to the point of knowing of good and evil, and "Never" choose evil,but "Always" choose good?......."Having a free will to choose." Of coarse without a free will we have no choice......"The decision is made for us."

In my mind Heaven/Paradise can't be heaven/paradise if we are programmed to only do good....."Without a free will." If this be the case,then why all this?......."Why wasn't Mankind/Sons of God/Angels/All Creations programmed from the very beginning to "Only" do what is good?"

It's got to be that "Mankind/Sons of God/Angels/All Creations" will one day with a free will "Always" choose good. How can God be "Love" and "Love" his creation if we his creation can't "Love" him back? How is it possible for we his creation to love him without a free will? Love never is Love down a one way street.

Think how much different the earth and atmosphere were before the flood of Noah. It had never rained until the flood. In other words, there was no such thing as weather as we know it today. I wonder how the sky looked as well as the star systems.

Many think of it as a canopy of water or greenhouse that surrounded the earth. The moist atmosphere insulated the inhabitants of the earth from the sun and life spans were then much longer. After the flood we begin to see a drastic reduction in the years of the life of mankind.

Just think about it,the life span was so great before the flood that four men could have transmitted the entire story from Adam until Abraham. We are talking here of almost two thousand years. These four men were Adam, Lamech, Shem, and Abraham.

Here is something else that blows my mind. We who are believers say many times to ourselves and even others....."I just get down sometimes because I can't see I'm really doing any good or producing anything for The Lord."

We all need to remember that Noah preached for one hundred and twenty years and nobody believed him.

ScaRZ wrote:Think how much different the earth and atmosphere were before the flood of Noah. It had never rained until the flood. In other words, there was no such thing as weather as we know it today. I wonder how the sky looked as well as the star systems.

Many think of it as a canopy of water or greenhouse that surrounded the earth. The moist atmosphere insulated the inhabitants of the earth from the sun and life spans were then much longer. After the flood we begin to see a drastic reduction in the years of the life of mankind.

Just think about it,the life span was so great before the flood that four men could have transmitted the entire story from Adam until Abraham. We are talking here of almost two thousand years. These four men were Adam, Lamech, Shem, and Abraham.

Here is something else that blows my mind. We who are believers say many times to ourselves and even others....."I just get down sometimes because I can't see I'm really doing any good or producing anything for The Lord."

We all need to remember that Noah preached for one hundred and twenty years and nobody believed him.

I must admit - this is something that I have never heard about - no rain pre-flood. Can we not assume it did and they failed to mention it because it was so common? They certainly did not document every aspect of creation. Is there something within scripture that states: "There was no rain in those days...."? Within the descriptions of the OT isnt there enough descriptions of deserts in which nothing grew? I try to imagine a desert within a moister enviornment and come up blank. Wouldn’t it cease to be a desert if life hand an abundance of water? Just thinking out loud.

I've spent time in several deserts with the Middle East and I have always wondered - why would God choose such a barren and lifeless land to begin life on this world. Garden of Eden? Desert Oasis? Why not a rainforest? Look at the 'promised land' - not prime real estate by most people’s definition. I can imagine those poor Romans at Masada cursing day and night only to discover in the end - those closet to God would cull their own instead of a fight - an act of mercy or spirit in flight?

Imagine if life was not limited today. Civilization would have already faced the population bubble crisis many times over.

Thank Him that He did?

@mdonnall2002

I've always taken the view of the earth not having any rain before the flood by what scripture says. Some people do not see it that way because what scripture doesn't say. As anyone can read there is very little in The Bible written about before the flood. Very few details of anything. I guess that's the way The Father wanted it......"Wiped away by the flood."

Here is a good article at Blue Letter Bible on this subject.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=738

Does the Bible teach that the earth did not receive rain until the Flood in Noah's day? Is it possible that the people had never seen it rain before the earth was destroyed in the Flood? Two passages seem to teach this.

Then God said, Let there be a expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. Thus God made the expanse, and divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so (Genesis 1:6,7)

For the Lord God had not caused it to rain, and there was no man to till the ground (Genesis 2:5).

Some say these verses teach that it did not rain until the time of the Flood. The earth was watered by a mist until the Flood waters came down. The water source for the Flood, it is argued, are the waters above spoken of in Genesis 1:6,7. They had been stored up since day two of creation. God did not open these floodgates until He destroyed the world in the days of Noah (Genesis 7:11). Until that time the people had never seen it rain.

Donald B. DeYoung presents the case of no rain before the Flood.

The rain falling on the roof of the ark may have been the very first rainstorm on earth. Several lines of biblical evidence of this exist:

1.No mention is made of rain on the earth until the Flood (Gen. 7:4,12). The original earth and the Garden of Eden were watered by streams, rivers, and mist instead of by rain (Genesis 2:5,6,10). These sources may have been replenished from groundwater. Humidity and mist are still effective today in watering plants. Part of Adam's responsibility in the garden may have been to provide irrigation for the vegetation (Gen. 2:15).

2.The vapor canopy that may have existed prior to the Flood would have greatly affected climate. It could have ruled out rain showers. With a uniform temperature over the entire earth, there would not have been significant high and low pressure regions that produce storms today. From the moment the canopy collapsed, rain would then become an everyday experience.

3.The rainbow represents a special covenant or promise of protection from another worldwide flood. The rainbow's appearance to Noah may have been its first occurrence in the sky (Gen. 9:8-17). Typical raindrops of sufficient size to cause a rainbow require atmosphere instability. Prior to the Flood, weather conditions were probably very stable.

If the earth did not experience rain before the Flood, then Noah's ark-building must have appeared especially foolish to his critics. Likewise, the faith of Noah described in Hebrews 11:7 was especially strong. Noah was warned about things not seen, which is perhaps a further indication that rain was not part of humanity's early experience. Even with this accumulated evidence, a final authoritative answer to this question of pre-Flood rain is not known (Donald B. DeYoung, Weather and The Bible, Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1992, pp. 112,113).

There Was Rain

Others believe that it did rain before the Flood. The Hebrew word translated mist in the King James Version is better rendered as stream as in the NIV. The picture therefore is not so much of an earth shrouded in clouds, as it is of an earth that had plenty of water from rivers to water the vegetation.

Before Fall, Not Necessarily Before The Flood

Thus the text seems to teach that there was no rain before the Fall, because there was sufficient water from the streams to irrigate the land. However, this does not mean that there was no rain after the Fall. After sin entered the world things radically changed.

Summary

As we examine the evidence it seems that the Bible says that there was no rain in the Garden of Eden before the Fall. The text does not say what happened after the Fall. Although a case can be made for no rain until the time of the Flood, we should not necessarily assume this happened. The evidence does not allow us to make any definite conclusions.

Interesting debate....

ScaRZ wrote: Although a case can be made for no rain until the time of the Flood, we should not necessarily assume this happened. The evidence does not allow us to make any definite conclusions.

Our knowledge of horticulture proves that vegetation (as described as present during the age of Noah) would require there to be rain. Same would be true to support the animal kingdom. A forest "mist', streams and rivers, is not sufficient.

There are many many requirements for rain. Foliage and ground washing, trees top branches.

It rained. It had to.

I guess many Biblical commentators don't have a "green-thumb". If they asked the farmers in their congregations, they might revise their views.

Genesis 2:5-6

5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground,

6 but streams (or mists) came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground--

Although, Genesis does mention plants for food in Genesis 1:29

I have noticed that the book of Genesis, especially in the beginning, sometimes places the verses out of order. I'm going to go with the "water from below" theory on this one.

norenrad wrote:Genesis 2:5-6

5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground,
6 but streams (or mists) came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground--
Although, Genesis does mention plants for food in Genesis 1:29
I have noticed that the book of Genesis, especially in the beginning, sometimes places the verses out of order. I'm going to go with the "water from below" theory on this one.

Within Genesis 1 – “out of order’’

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called Seas: and God saw that it was good.

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. 24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If the entire surface of the ground was covered with water – the Earth could not have had ‘every creepeth thing’ on it. Man was not the first creation. We were the last - on Earth.

Which makes me once again point out that the ‘assembly’ of this divinely inspired book is not a perfect representation or communication from God. The book was told by man, spread by man, and ‘assembled’ by falible Gods (man) in knowing both Good and Evil.

Jake Reason wrote:Interesting debate....

ScaRZ wrote: Although a case can be made for no rain until the time of the Flood, we should not necessarily assume this happened. The evidence does not allow us to make any definite conclusions.

Our knowledge of horticulture proves that vegetation (as described as present during the age of Noah) would require there to be rain. Same would be true to support the animal kingdom. A forest "mist', streams and rivers, is not sufficient.

There are many many requirements for rain. Foliage and ground washing, trees top branches.

It rained. It had to.

I guess many Biblical commentators don't have a "green-thumb". If they asked the farmers in their congregations, they might revise their views.

There were several farmers on both sides of my family. Most today have given up farming or have died.

Scripture certainly does point to the fact that at one time it didn't rain. The verses of scripture that "norenrad" lay out are very clear.

The first verse makes it very clear that no vegetation had yet sprung up because there was no rain,there was no mist at that point,and there was no man to till the ground. Then the next verse tells us what?........"A mist then (At this point in time)began to come up,rise,go up from the earth. It never said anything about rain falling on the earth from above. It came from the earth,not the clouds above the earth.

Genesis 2:5-6

And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.


In Genesis 3:23 we read that The LORD after the rebellion of Adam sends him forth from The Garden to then till the ground from where he came.

Genesis 3:23........"Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken."

If we go back to verse 5 of Genesis 2 there was no rain at that time and also there was no man to till the ground. Now going to Genesis 3:23 there is now Adam (The Man) to till the ground. Does this mean rain began at that point in time?....."Could have been the case,but we really don't know do we?"

Genesis 1:10 Before Genesis 2-3-4

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Plants were on Earth (dry land) on the third day. Men did not arrive until many 'days' later.
Tilling the land normally involves - Crops.

ScaRZ wrote:Does this mean rain began at that point in time?....."Could have been the case,but we really don't know do we?"

Yes, we do know now. I didn't use "theory" in my post, because we've grown passed that stage of knowledge with regards to plants and trees.

Apologetically, I understand we've learned so much in the last 2-3 generations that not everyone has been able to get caught up, yet. I respect that some things were still left to faith and interpretation before our discoveries in creation sciences.

What plants and animals need, is written it their seeds.
The Genesis account of "seeds after their kind" has not changed since then. There is no Biblical mention of a complete re-creation of every living thing after the flood. Besides, the animals on the Ark would have messed up the gene pool, if there were a total recreate.

Now I agree there was an antediluvian period, pre-flood. Even geological discovery agrees. An epoch of a higher density atmosphere, higher oxygen content, increased humidity, mist and dew, greater cloud cover through varying regions of the earth. Even the Great Sahara Desert was once a Forest.

But, There was both rain and sunshine before the flood, just as there was wind as well. Otherwise the earth's ecosystem could never have survived, let alone flourish.

As you and norenrad move through the transition of changing your mind regarding this subject; it will not be contentious. Nay! it is a wondrous journey. So marvelous is the intricacy and harmony of creation (nature). An AWE inspiring discovery!

The subtle intricacies of photosynthesis. Precise amounts of sunshine for each plant and tree. If too much or too little, it means the death or flourishing of differing species. Just the right amount of water, at the right time and the right temperature. One tiny fluctuation and a plant or tree whithers away.

And the animals and creatures need the plants and trees to obtain the precise conditions or they too will parish of starvation. If just one gene of thousands in a single plant genetics, is changed, the chemical composition of its leaves and/or fruit will be poison to one animal and food to another. The digestive chemicals in their stomach and intestines are precisely created and excreted to absorb specific foods for the sustenance of their body. If it is changed, whole species and their sub-species can expire.

If just one atom/element in a molecule is changed, the molecule becomes something entirely different, with completely different properties. Its color, its texture, its taste, its nutrient value to one form of life, or another. The genes in each cell of every animal, construct the chemical requirements of every food it can absorb/eat, or can not. And this is all contingent upon the reliant perfection of every plant, every tree, the amount and degree of sunlight, ground water, rain, wind, atmospheric composition, temperature and more.

The complexity, beauty, harmony and interplay of the ecosystem is a symphony of Glorious design.

Praise be the G-d, the Most High

@Jake


The Bible (Genesis) is very clear that there was no rain at one point before the rebellion. Water came from the earth,not above from clouds.It really doesn't matter what you or I think,or think we know. It's about what is in the written word.

If you don't believe what scripture does mention in this case,then that tells me a lot.

The Bible isn't a science book. It never was and it never will be. It is what it is,I except it for what it is,and also for what it isn't.

I enjoy discussing many of the things that puzzle me about scripture. I don't think there's anything better to do with my time. I feel every second I spend time within the pages of The Bible I grow in faith.

At the end of the day when the lights go out,that's what is most important. It's not about finding answers to all that puzzles me,it's about getting into the word and staying in the word.

The Lord isn't my co-pilot,The Lord is my pilot.


Hebrews 11:6........"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."


Matthew 7:7-8

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

ScaRZ wrote:@Jake
The Bible (Genesis) is very clear that there was no rain at one point before the rebellion. Water came from the earth,not above from clouds.

Oh, I thought you were talking about the time after Eden, the period after man was removed from the Garden. From that time until Noah...the antediluvian period

Oh well.

It really doesn't matter what you or I think,or think we know. It's about what is in the written word.

Not exactly.... its about how we interpret its meaning. If our interpretation contradicts Creation, our interpretation is wrong. Or the printed Bible version has been mistranslated from one language to another. G-d's handiwork written in creation, always trumps the doctrine of men.

And, I wasn't talking about what I think we know.


edit to add link

There are "doctrines of science". Which are as equally erroneous and distorted as religious "doctrines of men". Wrestling through these quagmires is the unavoidable crucible of our age.

"More than a half century ago, famed writer C.S. Lewis warned about how science (a good thing) could be twisted in order to attack religion, undermine ethics, and limit human freedom. In this documentary "The Magician's Twin: C.S. Lewis and the Case Against Scientism," leading scholars explore Lewis's prophetic warnings about the abuse of science and how Lewis's concerns are increasingly relevant for us today."

This was first televised in the past couple weeks. It is Part 1 of a three part documentary series. Part 2 and 3 are to be released in 2013.

Oh, I almost forgot this post of yours, Cy

Admin wrote:

Jake Reason wrote:
that we may overcome and be raised up to be Sons of God.

"Have the scriptures not told you, that I have told you, You are Gods! (advanced beings)"

Something happened long ago in the Heavens. Before the foundation of the earth. Simply stated, Something broke and needs fixing.

The earth is as it is, man is as man is, because it is required. It's in the design, the fabric of our existence, that everything is constantly needing fixing. Why is it so? because we are intended to be The Fixers.

Don't you know, that you will judge the Angels?(the term used was equivalent to mentor not judge)

We are children of the Most High.

One of the best ways to teach one how to fix things, is to give them lots of broken things. And just when they think they have figured out how to fix everything, give them something more complex to fix.

Progressing up to; This is the way we become Elohim. (the term used was "complex" - meaning more spiritually soul/body developed)

The above in red is what I basically heard (concept-wise) growing up. The wording was exactly the same and I've adjusted it a bit in a few parenthesis to show the meaning I was taught.

Wow, you were blessed with interesting parents. Took me 40 years to learn the above.

Thank you for sharing that.

Basically those who have been mentors for young peoples in our area of the universe present/past are approaching a state where they have learned and achieved what they need to to advanced to the next step in All Being. This will leave a void and leave many other young races extremely vulnerable...that there has and will continue to be competition over that void but that the replacements for those people (mentors) have already been identified. That 'identification' is what the Jesus appearance was about, mankind's potential. But that potential is only guaranteed by our own responsibility and success as a race beginning with our own world and neighborhood and our emerging relationship with those around us. We have to want it; we have to remember who we are.

At some point in the future if we continue to be successful in our development and spiritual evolution, that is the purpose that awaits us. That position as a benefit to those who are only beginning their journey and as a continuation of our own development until we too achieve what is needed for the next step.

Fascinating.

This ontological view, brings to memory "A Course in Miracles".
Intro: "It is a required course. Only the time you take it is voluntary. Free will does not mean that you can establish the curriculum. It means only that you can elect what you want to take at a given time."

"A Course in Miracles"(ACIM) can be comparatively summed up; as the final result of our progression and subsequent future, following the completion of the Biblically prophesied Millennial/Kingdom Come. However the ACIM begins in this life before that age to come and continues through until completed.
It's a two staged developmental epoch, if you will.

There are synergies with ACIM, Christianity and post-disclosure theosophy, to the ontological view you have briefly described above. Thought provoking. Too much to delve into in a few posts.

Are people ready or interested in such a thing? We still have so many problems to solve here amid ourselves. But can knowing or having an inkling that something like that awaits us, will that small spark make the difference in the choices we make today? Good question, huh?
Cy

Why of course. It does with me. 'Jesus' parables were stories which implied a journey or process within them. He taught that "The Kingdom of Heaven" is at hand, and it is within. Yet also implied there was progressive learning to do, between here and there.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Cy.

Jake Reason wrote:

ScaRZ wrote:@Jake
The Bible (Genesis) is very clear that there was no rain at one point before the rebellion. Water came from the earth,not above from clouds.

Oh, I thought you were talking about the time after Eden, the period after man was removed from the Garden. From that time until Noah...the antediluvian period

Oh well.

It really doesn't matter what you or I think,or think we know. It's about what is in the written word.

Not exactly.... its about how we interpret its meaning. If our interpretation contradicts Creation, our interpretation is wrong. Or the printed Bible version has been mistranslated from one language to another. G-d's handiwork written in creation, always trumps the doctrine of men.

And, I wasn't talking about what I think we know.

You didn't read it closely,I was very clear in "First" saying my thinking was that it hadn't rained before the flood. This is my opinion on the subject. But does that mean I am 100% correct....."No it doesn't."

I then used scripture to show at one point in time before the rebellion of Adam (The Man) there had been "No rain".


Did it begin to rain after there was Adam(The Man)to till the ground after his rebellion?......"We do not know from what is written in The Bible that it did." This was my point......"Using scripture (Only)." We never read in The Bible that before the rain that began to start the flood process there had been rain on the earth.

This is all I was laying out. I wasn't adding anything to scripture or taking anything away. I was only going by what is there.



Are you saying "The Red Lettered" written words of Jesus Christ may be the doctrine of men?.......Men wrote them down. Can we trust these men who wrote them down? Did they get it right? How do we know those Red Lettered written words are correct without error?

Some may find the information below interesting that I coincidentally stumbled on this morning only to see what you guys are discussing here in this thread.

From: The Inner Reaches of Outer Space:
Metaphor As Myth and As Religion
By Joseph Campbell

In 1,656 years, there are 86,400 weeks, and half that number is 43,200. There are myths about cycles in time, and out of time, so this doubling/halving is not uncommon. He believed that someone carefully gave the age of Noah to secretly hide the time cycle number.
He points out a number of other strange things about the numbers. Viking eddas were found in Iceland that told the story of the Day of Ragnorook, the Doomsday of the Gods. At that time, 800 Divine Warriors will come out of each of the 540 Doors of Valhalla (800 x 540 = 432,000).

The number can be found in an internal clock in the body, as well as in the Cosmos. A trained athlete's heart beats one time each second. In a 24 hour day, that is 86,400 beats.

The earth's axis wobble that causes the precession of the equinoxes is given as 25,920 years. Divided by the ancient number called "soss," 60, which was used in calculations, results in 432.

Some excerpts discussing numeric citations wrt the #432, pages 35-39:

"...Hindu sacred epics and puranas (popular tellings of ancient lore) the number of years reckoned to the present cycle of time, the so-called Kali Yuga, is 432,000; the number reckoned to the `great cycle' (mahayuga) within which this yuga falls being 4,320,000."

"...in the Icelandic Eddas, I discovered that in Othin's(Wotan's) warrior hall, Valhoell, there were 540 doors, through each of which, on the `Day of the Wolf' (that is to say, at the end of the present cycle of time), there would pass 800 divine warriors to engage the anti-gods in a battle of mutual annihilation. 800 x 540 = 432,000..."

"in Babylon, I then recalled, there had been a Chaldean priest, Berossos, who, c. 280 BC, had rendered in Greek and account of the history and mythology of Babylonia, wherein it was told that between the time of the rise of the first city, Kish, and the coming of the Babylonian mythological flood (from which that of the Bible is taken), there elapsed 432,000 years..."

"...the Old Testament (Genesis 5) and counting the number of antediluvian patriarchs, Adam to Noah, discovered, of course, that they were ten. How many years?
Adam was 130 years old when he begat Seth, who was 105 when he begat Enosh, and so on, to Noah, who was 600 years old when the flood came; to a grand total, from the first day of Adam's creation to the first drop of rain of Noah's flood, of 1656 years. Any relation to 432,000?

Julius Oppert, a distinguished Jewish Assyriologist of the last century, in 1877 presented before the Royal Society for Sciences in Gottingen a paper on `Dates in Genesis,' in which it was shown that in 1656 years there are 86,400 seven-day weeks. 86,400 divided by 2= 43,200."

Source: http://www.greatdreams.com/432.htm


So one interesting point that's brought out in the information above is that THE FIRST DROP OF RAIN OF NOAH'S FLOOD, is connected to the mystery number 432.