Hello, Cy, OMF II - Part 2

First topic message reminder :

2:40pm EST

White Smoke 30 min ago.... Watching it live... awaiting the New Pope to walk out on the balcony. Vatican Guards and Italian Naval Soldiers marching on the steps of St.Peters Basilica, to the music of the Marching Band.




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edit notice: This thread is the Part Two continuation from the original thread - last post here -

https://openmindsforum.forumotion.com/t6p990-hello-cy-hello-omf-ii#2215

Dan,
Concerning my post above re: John 14:2  "How do you reckon?"  

We have talked about this contrasting view between 'Jesus" and your BPWH numerous times in the past.  It might be helpful if you could readdress it within the context of your discussion/debates with Paul, David, Chris and Jack.

In the meantime while you contemplate that, I offer another question that might be helpful in prep to your desired meeting, should it occur......

Dan wrote:Given that there is even just a finite possibility that my hunches about an impending Eschaton could be well-founded, I think you would be likely to share this sense of personal priority with me.

If and when you and Jack are at least willing to entertain this possibility, I would be glad to sponsor a three-way meeting.

It is my understanding that science does not foresee or project an "Eschaton" on the imminent horizon.  yes/no?

Save for perhaps "Political science" which foresees several impending disasters on the horizon for mankind.  But these are not seen as an Eschaton tie-in.  Rather just a very rough transitional time for mankind.

The only studies in which we foresee an impending "Eschaton" is in religious and secular Prophecy.  yes/no?


.

Jake Reason wrote:It is my understanding that science does not foresee or project an "Eschaton" on the imminent horizon.  yes/no?

They know Jake.  The truth is different at every level.

We've been here before.  This is the window of possibility and they don't know if the scale will tip as far as it has in the past instances.  So far we have the ocean temperature current in the Atlantic shut down, the pole shift 138 miles closer to Siberia, and rampant earth changes and weather and climate changes escalate.  The sun is involved and I've heard discussion of electric discharges between planetary bodies being a concern?

I've heard our technology is not currently high enough to soften the possibilities.  Hense this added to the social and financial instability looks to the system lords to be a perfect storm causing them to fear among the physical effects, societal collapse.  Thus the construction of the police state, continuity of governance efforts, and suspension of the Constitution in part within some locations, and in whole along the borders where Constitution Free Zones have been set.  

Unambiguous Contact will be icing on the cake.  But the bed was made and lain in long before they decided to step into the fray.





I suspect this is why people like Dan and others have been encouraged to do the eschaton theorizing they have been doing. Knowing that civilization is gone into a nose dive with a planetary cataclysm waiting at the bottom of the fall means they need some way of rationalizing a controlled reality up until the last moments.

If you can cause substantial numbers of people you are believing you cannot save to believe they will suddenly evolve into a more complex state of being or be whisked into an alternate dimension or suddenly raptured, etc etc, then those people remain passive without change or preparation for any necessity key to survival.

Call them religions of clearing the playing field.

Not all men are allowed to live equally. Control of information and communication is what much of the recent wrangling has been about. It is the key to controlling a society and even a planet in free fall. It leads to control of every aspect of Being. You can see the hysteria of the system inhabitants already in the way they are attempting to implement new policies such as over agriculture, guns, and social gatherings some as simple as a neighborhood poker game. And the worst has not even begun yet.

Cy

Admin wrote:

Jake Reason wrote:It is my understanding that science does not foresee or project an "Eschaton" on the imminent horizon.  yes/no?

They know Jake.  The truth is different at every level.

We've been here before.
>

Hi, nice to see you back here after an understood reprieve in the midst of global exasperation of current events.

Yes, they can know.  But their neurosis compel them to maintain their neurosis that it is isn't happening, so that they can pretend to live a normal life, with aim to garner respect from their peers, regardless if their peers, or themselves are psychotic or not.

And in that convoluted realm of mental construct, they don't know.  As they are not permitted to recognize it.  Nor are they permitted to live it, nor acknowledge it, for fear of community non-acceptance or ridicule.

In Dan's world, I think of it as the "d14947" syndrome.

>

However I need add that these common communities are not the "PtB".  These communities are aware of them, but not them.  They are not afforded the latitude to openly think like the PtB do.

IWO, what I'm attempting to express.... the PtB Scientific Elite KNOW.   (Gnosis)   While all the rest are intellectually imprisoned in a neurotic realm.  And are subsequently sub-conscientiously controlled by the neurotic construct in which they have chosen to exist, reside and subsist.  

Therefore, to them, within the context of their realm, they are correct to deduce that science does not foresee or project an "Eschaton" on the imminent horizon.  As such is not seeable through their select construct which they deem to be complete. This is understandably the majority global scientific view.

Thus I am asking Dan, yes/no?

>

Thank you for the video, Cyrellys.   I'll watch it tomorrow and comment after.

Bed Time....


.

Cy,

It is good to see you back again, if only a short absence.  

My thinking is that the only way to forestall the eschaton is to embrace that likelihood, openly, and that is what may be about to happen.  

Also absent for a few weeks have been R&A, but yesterday they came back on the scene, as strong as ever, reporting progress on several fronts.  

It still is a slender thread by which all of our projects and progress hang, while also twisting in the wind.  If all this has been written in the stars, then the stars must be crazy, along with the gods.  


Jake,

A quick google on 'many mansions' brought me to this page....... http://www.craigkeener.com/tag/in-my-fathers-house-are-many-mansions/ .  Perhaps we should be looking at it together.  Off the top, I note that Mansions is rendered as 'dwellings', which seem rather less grandiose than the usual planetary interpretation that is assumed amongs out ufo colleagues.  

Does science foresee an eschaton......?  Only of various negative possibilities.  Certainly nothing metaphysical that I would project.  


In the meantime, there has also been some progress with Paul and David, in conversations following on from the above correspondence.  

Also, the president was mentioned, for almost the first time, ever, this in connection with Aliyah's LotP.  My attention was called to the following, in connection to his African trip......

THE WHITE HOUSE
                 Office of the Press Secretary
For Immediate Release
EXECUTIVE ORDER ------- COMBATING WILDLIFE TRAFFICKING
July 1, 2013

Michael P, one of the projected participants in Aliyah's show next Tuesday, recently briefed the president on this topic.  I have met Michael once or twice.  He is a China hand, and one of his mentors was Andy Marshall.  The EO, however, as I noted to Ron, does not suggest the lethal countermeasures that will be Tuesday's topic.  

There is also talk of Aliyah sponsoring the first national cricket team for Kashmir.  And of our hooking up with C2C.  A lot of hot air?  Who knows?  


Pursuant to some of the above, I spoke to my old ufo buddy, Bill L.  It was just like the good ol' days.


If I cannot persuade Chris L, and possibly Larry F, to come to SF with me, I might try to meet up with him again, on the way out.  

But that is the immediate issue...... another meeting and filming.  I will be in NM, from 8/10-22.  It depends largely on Jack's willingness to venture outside of his scientific comfort zone, however briefly.  


But Jake does very properly question my concern with science, in the context of a metaphysical eschaton.  That is exactly what Jack and I will need to discuss.  Just as he also questions my dalliance with Christians on this same topic.  

Quite crudely, I suppose, I'm playing one off against the other.  It's like interrogating two suspects, in isolation, seeing who will rat out the other.  


Speaking of which, I was introduced to my first molecular biological animation, last Sunday at SfA, by Bill S.  I have watched several since.  They are pretty easily referenced on youTube, and some are truly outstanding.  Note-bene, that several of these productions are christian sponsored.

I get a whole new perspective on the biological problem, from seeing these animations, as compared to just staring at diagrams.  It is mind-blowing, and I'm still struggling to find words to describe the experience.  


There are two xian takes on biology........ ID vs. theistic evolution, being of evangelical and 'liberal' provenance, respectively.  

I submit that these films come down on the side of the latter, despite their sometime evangelical sponsorship.  

IOW, I'm seeing animism/vitalism in these animations.  Animism is supposed to be the purview of paganism.  What ever brought us to this cross-roads?  

As with progress in physics research, there was the expectation that, as will drilled down into the nano-world, things would simplify.  This is the whole point of atomism/reductionism.  No?  But that is not how the story is turning out.  There is organicism/holism on all levels.  

The ID folks have an excruciatingly naive notion of God's scheme of intervention....... She simply tweeks the genes, every once in awhile.  But what we're seeing in these films is something that goes vastly beyond tweeking!  Hey, it's turtles, all the way down!  

But why can this not be proven, even when it is staring us in the face?  There is no smoking-gun here, it is truly a gestalt inversion.  

Whether we are observing the planet, a nation, a city, an ecosystem, a body, an organ, a cell or an organelle, the same types of complexities and functions may be observed...... analogies abound, and they are duly, if implcitly, noted.  

Teleology abounds on all levels.  What does this say of ourselves and God?

Animism goes with pantheism and panpsychism.  Why do we need God?  We need God mainly for the Eschaton.  Can there not be design without a designer?  Orchestration without a conductor?  There often is.  It is in the hidden-hand of economics, for instance.

It is a self-organizing, spontaneous complexity. Like the spontaneous generation of life, abiogenesis.


Then there is the idea of Maxwell's demon to contend with. It is not that the cells are violating entropy, but one does wonder about the logistics behind the large scale dynamics. The functioning of the centromeres in the process of genetic multiplication and re-segregation is particularly challenging. The animators take a stab at it, but it only seems to deepen the mystery. For every explanation offered, ten more questions arise.



(cont.)

Drew Berry



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFCvkkDSfIU

That's a pretty good description Jake.

Jake Reason wrote:And in that convoluted realm of mental construct, they don't know.

But there are many who see it as a lame excuse to cover their AXX's and many more who do not consider the change of our national character and operating principles appropriate for this crisis. In fact it is in such crisis that the designed character and principles are meant to provide the necessary unknown factor which makes the difference in the long run collectively because of its close ties to the human Potential. The elite's choices and in particular the design of a tyranny in the midst of this Crisis puts every aspect of survival in jeopardy.

I don't know any other way to put it. I've been ringing the bell of warning since 2008 in every place I can reach. It isn't enough obviously for nothing seems to stem the tide.

Someone said last night on a video that these guys are playing for keeps and nothing will stop them. And until those who can recognize the problem understand this they cannot comprehend the length that may be necessary to intervene. Signs, protests, and internet writing isn't going to do it.

I said a few years ago that the day I cease talking is the day the world needs to worry. I've largely ceased except with a small circle of friends. I'm done being a broken record repeating the message.

If I seem angry it is because it is. It really doesn't take a patterner to see where all this mess is going. And the future threatens a world without a civilization and the return of something I've hated for many lifetimes. But this is the habitual result of the choice everyone makes when they accept tyranny. When they stand by and do nothing.

Civilization has always been a fragile tentative thing. And no one ever cherishes it until they witness the loss of one. Many will live long enough to wish with ever ounce of their fiber they had done something to stop the tyranny before it results in the implosion. But then it will be too late and once it's gone you can't get it back. What we have here will become a fleeting legend like so many in the past which survivors and their descendants will tell bedtime stories of. And that's just the sentimental part of the reality that will descend on everyone...the other part will be centuries an even millennia of horror.

For someone like myself, where haunted by the memory of the sword hilt in the hand and the roar in the mind which retracts your soul when that blade is employed, it is knowing you're being condemned to repeat those lifetimes because no one will act to prevent the preventable. Surely my anger is understandable? Most people don't have such memories so they cannot experience the fear of someone pulling the rug out from under all their spiritual progress in that respect.

The whole population of the world should have to carry all lifetimes of memories with them into the next. If they bore such a curse maybe they'd be more careful and involved in the present.

Cy

Dan wrote:It is good to see you back again, if only a short absence.

Thanks Dan. Cy

Cy........

The whole population of the world should have to carry all lifetimes of memories with them into the next. If they bore such a curse maybe they'd be more careful and involved in the present.

Who says that we don't carry these memories?  Neither of us deny the interconnectedness of the world.  The world and our interconnections are, most likely, most reasonably, one and the same.  

The world is going through great changes, beyond all historical precedence, and yet it is still holding together, and this is not just the design of some evil conspiracy, although they surely exist.  Where was that conspiracy when these foundations were laid?  

We are molecules within a vast organism.  It may, and usually does, seem overwhelming.  We sense that there is a hidden hand, but how do we read the mind behind the hand?  It seems quite oblivious.  Things may get worse before they get better.  Many parts of the world are experiencing disintegration.

But here we are, lighting our little candles, not putting them under a bushel.  

You suppose that we are an experiment that could be destined to fail, just as most civilizations have.  Billions of cells in our bodies are succumbing to viral attacks, every day and hour.  

We struggle for health, and even for a new vision of health.  It is not easy to turn the juggernaut on a dime, but it is possible, although usually with much conflict and suffering.  


6:30--------

I do struggle to find a cogent response to your pessimism, Cy.  Clearly, God must love pessimists, otherwise she would not have created so many of us, and she has provided us with ample justification for our lack of confidence in the future, or of our ability to surmount the many challenges and forces of evil.  

Even if we could be saved, do we deserve it?  Most suppose that we do not, that we have failed to pass the test.  This cosmic experiment on this little ball of rock will very soon need to be recycled into some other world, where our chances may even be less than they were here, on Earth.  Nonetheless, a very few of us may be allowed to transcend to some happy hunting ground, to depart from the wheel of reincarnation.  

I have no way to disprove any of this negative assessment.  All I can do is, occasionally, point out that there may be alternative viewpoints, for what they may be worth.


8:20---------

I do wonder, though, about what is going on inside our cells, and if it might shed light on the larger world. Molecular mechanisms do abound, and eventually we may find plausible, genetic explanations for their evolution.

If the mechanistic models do not prove sufficiently robust, we may invoke quantum models. The holism thereof may put more strain on the very notion of reductive explanation. OTOH, the teleology that is implicit in the notion of weak measurements may point to a way to transcend mechanism, without invoking metaphysics. This would be much more ammenable to an animistic, Aristotelian treatment.

The mind-body problem, however, does point to the limitations of animism.

Vitalism, per se, does not account for the coherence of the mind, particularly as displayed in the construct of the self.  Rationality also transcends mechanism in a suggestive manner.


Coordinated control is displayed at the cellular level. Perhaps we could project that self-organizing facility to provide a basis for a personal self.

Dan wrote:Who says that we don't carry these memories?

The vast majority do not have "access" to those memories.

I am not a pessimist Dan. I have always been an optimist. But being an optimist does not mean you cannot be proven wrong by someone else's choices.

Just because someone, a group of someone's, or a whole planet of someone's has great potential does not mean they will perceive it and pursue it. It does not guarantee success.

The greatest problem I am currently seeing is that those who care, who are aware of that potential, and who are capable of engaging that potential are currently removed from the helm of the ship. They aren't even in the room.

They aren't living their lives by the same definition as those doing the system steering. The disconnect is so great that the majority can't even clearly identify who is who or who does what in government. Nor Government inhabitants understand and identify with the opposite. That's a recipe for a catastrophic clash looking for a place to happen.

It runs even deeper that disconnect. There is a cultural difference aspect to it that ensures a failure to make connections and live/work congruently. And the longer this continues the greater that rift becomes.

Seeing and describing what I observe makes me sound like a pessimist when I am not.

Cy,

Perhaps our misunderstanding lies in our disparate assumptions.....

1.)  You assume that the PtB may be able to thwart the needed transformation.  

2.)  I assume that the transformation is inevitable, but that the PtB do have the capacity to delay it, beyond the optimal window of opportunity.  

These two different assumptions do lead to different interpretations of our present situation, and of how best to respond to it.

In point of fact, given the BPWH, then, actually, the apparent delaying tactics of the PtB are only playing into the fulfillment of the cosmic plan, at its proper time.  This is my assumption..... 2*.  


The point is that you and Jake are on the same page wrt the Many Worlds Hypothesis (MWH).  Perhaps we should take another look at that hypothesis.  

Jake makes frequent reference to John 14:2 (NIV)........

My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?

Jake is not the only ufologist to take this verse to be a primary divine sanction for the MWH.  A careful look at the context shows that supposition to be a very considerable extrapolation from the text.  

But I am not a biblical literalist.  At best, I am a biblical cherry-picker and Jesus freak.  

Now, you tell me that you are an optimist, but how can you be an optimist, if you also adhere to the MWH?  You and I need to discuss this crucial point.  


noon--------

In the meantime, I'm still pondering bio-molecular dynamics, particularly as illustrated in various recent animations.  

I find these dynamics to be most suggestive.  Why, though, is an immaterialist sojourning into this heart of the matter?  Because I find it suggestive...... as above, so below, and vice-versa.  

In a previous post, I suggested that these animation support animism over ID.  And so they support Aristotle over Plato.  



(cont.)

Be careful when using the NIV.  It contains advanced reverse indoctrination.  This is usually not a problem for the casual Sunday believer.  But for scholarly study this transliteration is of little use.

KJV-1611

In my Father's house are many mansions:

NIV uses "rooms" in place of "mansions".  Thus reducing the scope and potent of the original revelation.  

μοναι = original Greek word, meaning: residence, place, abode, mansion.

I interpret this statement as a Universal truth.  With numerous defining applications, scales and interpretive meanings.  Inclusive of theoretical physics, cosmology, philosophy, theology, phenomenology and ufology.

"Many worlds" is simply one potent understanding of the statement.  But I view the scope of this statement to embody far more expansive meanings.  Both within and beyond our space/time continuum.


.

Drew Berry's bio-molecular visualizations, represent a major contribution to the on-going scientific research of the "soul/spirit". What organizing force is driving the molecules?

I introduced these to you, Dan, at least five years ago. I had two such videos in my original OMF signature of every post.

It is my view, of which I am not alone, that micro-biology will be the Science that will inform theoretical psychics of an approaching "eschaton".

I trust you understand how this could be so.


.

Jake,

You continue to extrapolate 14:2, way beyond its intended context.  Just off the top, Jesus is refering to Heaven and not to the heavens.  But before we tear the bible apart, let's wait to see what Cy has to say on the topic of Creation.  


In the meantime, let us continue with the Aristotelian metaphysics, which could be critical to a BPW take on biology.......


But in reference to your second post, above, yes, now I remember those references to which, at the time, I did not pay sufficient attention, as with your early references to Chris L.  

And, no, I do not get the connection between biology and eschatology.  Feel free to elaborate!  


Aristotle is the philosopher of Final causes, and, along with his Prime mover, he is the prime expositor of the Alpha and Omega.

And this is precisely where the evangelicals run off the rails. They have no clue about the Omega. To them it is just another strange word in the Bible. They do not strive to internalize or animate these words, in other than an egocentric manner. It is a grave sin of omission.




(cont.)

dan wrote:Jake,

You continue to extrapolate 14:2, way beyond its intended context.

Jesus' teaching is beyond kindergarten. Although many still want to contain him there.

Just off the top, Jesus is referring to Heaven and not to the heavens.

"As above, so below". Creation is coherent.

"Heaven" and "the heavens" are coexisting and interdependent.



.

Jake.......

"Heaven" and "the heavens" are coexisting and interdependent.

True enough, but are you saying that Many Mansions refers to both realms?  I don't think you want to go there!


Back to the Telos........

This is what I'm seeing in the biological animations. It is teleology in action. There is very little hint of watchmaking, unless we speak of water-clocks!?

At best, these are quantum clocks.



(cont.)

dan wrote:Jake,

... in reference to your second post, above, yes, now I remember those references to which, at the time, I did not pay sufficient attention, as with your early references to Chris L.  

And, no, I do not get the connection between biology and eschatology.  Feel free to elaborate!  

Dan, you have great skill at connecting dots.  I trust you can do it.

I have to run out, so must be brief....

scientific discovery:  organizing force is driving molecular biology

Now science bumps along, studying and expanding its understanding....

1.  What is this force driving the molecule biology?  science is working on it.
2.  What type of energy is it?  science is working on it.
3.  How is the energy organized?  working on that too.
4.  What is the source of the energy?  eureka! it links to mind/body problem.  Micro-Biology must consult Physics.  Science Assimilation occurs...
5.  Soul discovered and confirmed.

What happens next?  Humanity faces its childhood's end.  We are not the sum of our material parts.  Scientific fact

This causes Personal and Group revelations.  Man looks within their soul.

Proceeded by Personal Spiritual Eschatons....

Ultimately leading to Human Group Soul Eschaton.

A/O, X2

All things pass away, all things become new.


.

Jake,

Well, then, it does seem that we are pretty much on the same, but with two significant caveats.........

1.) There is no proof of God or soul, even as we become one with God. The proof is only in the pudding, and by its fruits.

2.) All things new......? No. That suggests that all things pass away. But I continue to insist upon the notion that this best possible Creation is embedded in Eternity, and is co-Eternal with the Creator, as is Jesus and the Alpha&Omega.

Yes?

Dan & Jake,

I will go there.  I wholly agree with Jake that meaning and context of intent interpretation changes when you subtly alter words.

Rooms does not mean the same as Mansions.

By my understanding which does not originate in the Bible of any version, Mansions comes the closest to matching what I understand to be the case.

There are two terms which need to be understood to perceive what I do.  The first is:

COMPLEXITY

the second is

NATURE.

Complexity addresses a number of things.  

Caveat:  Consider the inter-connected-ness similar to the tessaract (four dimensional cube cubed) this is also called "tiered thinking" but can include inter-dimensional connections just like the strands of the tessaract in a line drawing.



The complexities of BEING is what is meant by "many MANSIONS".

The complexities of BEING are contingent upon NATURE.

I have gone over NATURE many times before.

anyway,

to illustrate an extraterrestrial (corporeal being) does not have the same complexity or nature as an ultraterrestrial (noncorporeal being). And these are in reality kindergarten terms (generalities) used to classify the broad landscape of beings into a tangible perception.

The concept of MANSIONS encompasses all forms of BEING and all states of environment.

Back to complexity - it begins in the realm of the molecular which is controlled/influenced by NATURE which together physically can be measured by resonance. Resonance is the side effect which is measurable.

Jake Reason wrote:scientific discovery: organizing force is driving molecular biology

Now science bumps along, studying and expanding its understanding....

1. What is this force driving the molecule biology? science is working on it.
2. What type of energy is it? science is working on it.
3. How is the energy organized? working on that too.
4. What is the source of the energy? eureka! it links to mind/body problem. Micro-Biology must consult Physics. Science Assimilation occurs...
5. Soul discovered and confirmed.

What happens next? Humanity faces its childhood's end. We are not the sum of our material parts. Scientific fact

This causes Personal and Group revelations. Man looks within their soul.

Proceeded by Personal Spiritual Eschatons....

Ultimately leading to Human Group Soul Eschaton.

A/O, X2

All things pass away, all things become new.

Yes I would agree with this quote by Jake. It is again simplified but it works. It also is a process that takes a long time. Even at our accelerated rate of learning this will still take a long time and it will be conditional on having a stable environment and civilization and communications across the breadth of population to achieve. Population is a necessary factor.

Yes Dan, I do suggest that the ptb could take down the circumstances necessary to eventually reach an evolutionary Soul eschaton.

Yes it is possible to screw up the moving parts of a rock.


Cy

Dan replied to Jake Reason wrote:2.) All things new......? No. That suggests that all things pass away.

I think a more satisfying way to look at it would be "transformation". Not a ceasing but in a way a new beginning. Change.

Forgive the intrusion Dan,Cy, Jake:


If the City/Heaven is the Kingdom in which ‘many mansions’ reside it would render the many worlds argument in void in a literal sense of planets fitting within it.  If the Kingdom/City of Heaven is only one city specifically reserved of/and or for God – then the ‘many worlds’ is still open to possibility.  

The first five minutes of this video discusses the size of heaven.  How is the math, Dan?  



Visual Representation


Certainly looks to be a ‘new world’ to me.

The physical dimensions of Heaven look to be a planet ‘Squared’ much smaller than what we know as our world today. Cy seems to have been doing her homework the last couple days regarding ‘squares within squares’ concept. What happens when we consider Time and the dimensionality? Does it become larger or do we exist between it?

Perhaps Looking to the sparks seems wise?



Strangely enough, if the mother would have followed ‘expert advice’ Jacob’s Ladder may have never been realized. A parent’s love brought forth his potential by trusting something in which she could not see, touch, taste, or feel.  She sensed – what others could not.

Thank you MD. Did anyone notice - The image of the cube cubed I originally posted on Facebook years ago when I first opened the account, when Facebook was new and not yet popular.

Cy

dan wrote:Jake,

Well, then, it does seem that we are pretty much on the same (page), but with two significant caveats.........

1.)  There is no proof of God or soul, even as we become one with God.  The proof is only in the pudding, and by its fruits.  

True, but only now is it by "faith".  This is rapidly changing.  As Science is very close to discovering and confirming metaphysics as part and parcel of reality.

Like the time of Marconi, he was scorned, debated and disbelieved.  But today we have satellites and cell phones.  And even more magic... NSA recordings of trillions of communications analyzed by silicon wafers the size of a thumb nail.
 

2.)  All things new......?  No.  That suggests that all things pass away.  But I continue to insist upon the notion that this best possible Creation is embedded in Eternity, and is co-Eternal with the Creator, as is Jesus and the Alpha&Omega.  

Yes?

Well.. both science and theology insist that the earth is not eternal.  But I agree that the thought and memory of it, will be.

Dan, in the grand scheme this is a moot theological point in our musings.  

However I remind you I am obligated under a Red-Letter Covenant.  And the Pauline verse 2 Cor 5:17 - "all things pass away, behold all things become new", is elaborated in Revelation 21.  And this book gives a serious warning in Rev 22:18-19.  Theological Coherency admonishes me to respect that.

And hey, it fits!


.

Admin wrote:Dan & Jake,
>
By my understanding which does not originate in the Bible of any version, Mansions comes the closest to matching what I understand to be the case.
>
The complexities of BEING is what is meant by "many MANSIONS".

The complexities of BEING are contingent upon NATURE.
>
The concept of MANSIONS encompasses all forms of BEING and all states of environment.

Well said (shortened your quote for easy reading)
we're on the same page here.

Yes I would agree with this quote by Jake (scientific sole discovery).  It is again simplified but it works.  It also is a process that takes a long time.

Even at our accelerated rate of learning this will still take a long time and it will be conditional on having a stable environment and civilization and communications across the breadth of population to achieve. Population is a necessary factor.

Yes Dan, I do suggest that the ptb could take down the circumstances necessary to eventually reach an evolutionary Soul eschaton.

Hear, Hear! So true.

The nefarious PtB have much to loose upon 'soul discovery'. There WILL be great resistance. Media and higher learning is already highly propagandized to resist and forestall mankind from investing energies and resources into understanding who are what we are. This will continue.

Overcoming influences are at work.

BUT so true, Cy! .... it needs "a stable environment and civilization and communications across the breadth of population to achieve".

Some PtB could divert it, as they so will. And Much tribulation will come as a direct result.

Onward


.

MD02 wrote:Forgive the intrusion Dan,Cy, Jake:

No intrusion - rather synchronicity!

Thanks MD.  Dan knows Jack would enjoy your points.  So too Winnie-the-Pooh (RP-?), imo.  

Cy, Jake and MD02,  

Heaven and Earth.........

I would submit that these two realms are complementary, within eternity.  We can't have one without the other, it is almost like yin and yang.  

I would be reluctant to assign a size or even a dimensionality to Heaven.  I see heaven as being virtually synonymous with the Creator.  It is a state of being that is related to cosmic consciousness.  It is a mystical, timeless perspective on Creation.  It is about being ultimately present.  We can sense that Presence, even in our normal lives.  Then we become that Presence.  It is like turning the world inside/out.  

All spiritual traditions tend to devalue the world.  And it is true that ego-consciousness can barely hold a candle to cosmic consciousness, but, again, there is a complementarity that cannot be vouchsafed.  

However, new-age spirituality does often stress the importance of being here, now.  And this is what the mystic can experience, and what we will experience, on the other side of this coin.  Then we will know ourselves for the first time, and how even the minutest detail is related to every other detail.  This relatedness is what art tries to capture.  That is the essence of cosmic consciousness.  

All the greed and evil in the world cannot put a dent in this mystical aesthetic.  It is a temporal part of the fabric.  From the other side, it will take on a very different, even inverted ontology.  

Are we privileged to possibly be near ground zero of the impending transformation?  I don't look at it that way.  I look at it as just providing a sneak-preview of what is to come.  We just experience a wrinkle in time.

The deeper we get into the Millennium and the Eschaton, the more deeply will we experience the wrinkles or curvature of time.  That is how we become Present, and turn the world inside-out.  The kingdom is within, and then it is without.  In any global transformation or re-mapping, there is always a singular fixed point or fulcrum.  This is the pivot point of the Revolution/Revelation/Resurrection.  This is what we may aspire to.  


Per Paul and David, I'm supposed to be studying the systems of Aristotle and Spinoza, particularly wrt their takes on teleology, despite the fact the Spinoza is often supposed to be an anti-teleological atheist.  

http://www.ghandchi.com/406-SpinozaEng.htm

http://fas-philosophy.rutgers.edu/mlin/teleology.pdf

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_the_history_of_philosophy/summary/v049/49.1.melamed.html

There is also the possibility that R&A will be in SF, within the next two weeks.  So we might try to schedule a meeting of the minds around that.  And here is Aliyah's poster for next week's show..... http://chroniclesofthelittleprincess.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/leopards-on-the-prowl-lethal-engagement-in-counter-poaching/ .  Also, Damien Mander may put in an appearance.  

From: Dan
Date: July 11, 2013, 4:07:42 PM EDT
To: Paul
Cc: David
Subject: Teleology

Yes, I do find much that is sympathetic in Spinoza's discussion of teleology.  

He was mainly arguing against a narrow form of deism, and, in that context, he could almost be lumped in with the naturalists, but this was far from the intent of his more subtle arguments.  In fact, much of his system may be seen as compatible with the BPWH.  Nor do I see any insurmountable demarcations between Spinoza and either Leibniz or Aristotle.  Each of them had strongly nuanced positions on their metaphysical foundations.

I might take issue, however, with their alleged anti-personalist views.  I think it would be fair to say that each of them is arguing toward a transpersonal view of the transcendental realm.  I would not argue with that, but nor would I argue with the notion of a loving Creator, to whom we may feel a personal connection.  We could even think of the emotion of love as transporting us into the transpersonal realm.  It certainly does transcend our egos.  

There is much discussion of the difficulty of distinguishing between efficient and final causes.  This indistinguishability is just the measure of the holistic nature of the world of causes, once we pass beyond the abstraction of reductionism.  Given the construct of a CTC, for instance, how are we to distinguish between the Alpha and the Omega?  

I simply do not see how any but the most rabid materialist could object to the big-tent that is panentheism.  And, historically, is it not Cartesian dualism that has been its primary challenge, rather than materialism?  And, of course, much of the impetus against pantheism comes from theological dualism, in its several varieties.  Science has provided the primary impetus against all dualism, especially when we begin to see beyond its simplistic reductionism.


(cont........)

From: Dan
Date: July 11, 2013, 5:50:19 PM EDT
To: Paul
Cc: David
Subject: Re: Teleology

(cont........)


Probably the strongest argument against the BPWH would come from the pantheist objection to the seemingly simplistic notion of a Rapture, even when I have taken pains to minimize its implied discontinuity.

(Also, wrt Jack's sensibilities, let me not forget to address the tension between teleology and mathematics. Much of that tension is being mitigated with the quantum realm, of course. That need only be made more explicit or emphatic.)

But, yes, the Rapture does seem to push the envelope of teleology to its breaking point. Jack's misgivings thereto, are no small blessing wrt the larger mission.

The paradox is that the discontinuity of the rapture is what enables the larger coherence. One could equally point to the quantum jump and to the process of cell division as discontinuities that render the larger schemes coherent. One might suppose that molecular biology has rendered mitosis continuous, but only at the expense of a greatly expanded explanatory debt, with all its promissory notes.

The process of metamorphosis is an even more stark example of biological discontinuity, taking place at the level of an entire organism, without benefit of developmental stages. But even this extreme example, is only a small step toward the metaphysics being contemplated in the BPWH.