Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

First topic message reminder :

Testing.......

Yes, it is working.

Congratulations to Cyrellys & Co.!

I will be continuing the BPWH blog from Compass Morainn, which was a continuation from the original OMF site on ProBoards, which is in the process of being re-archived from that site.



(cont.)

Today is supposed to be day one of the new CL initiative....... and it may be the last, but I doubt it.

I'm making everyone an offer that no one can refuse. In effect, I'll be holding the BGF and GFC hostages to the truth...... and ultimately the entire world.

And the burden of proof will not be on me. Rather, the burden will be on the rest of the world to prove that I am wrong in my assessment of the potential significance of the BPWH.

Can anyone in the world demonstrate that the BPWH does not represent the best chance for the best outcome for human history? Or that the alternatives are not becoming increasingly dire?

It is as if I were an alien landing on Earth with a message from the stars, requesting to be taken to your leader or to anyone who can demonstrate that my message is false.

And here is another perspective on what we are confronting, wrt to our future....... Are we a cancer or a chrysalis? We cannot move forward until we have come to a determination, until we can render a diagnosis and a prognosis.

This is what I also need to take up with Jack S&Co.......

Wrt Jack, I would first focus on the notion of perpetual progress, and, particularly, on how this relates to the ETH v. the UTH. Once again, there are clear choices, clear contingencies which need to be seriously considered, by the best and brightest.

From: Dan Smith
Date: August 5, 2012 10:28:54 AM EDT
To: JACK SARFATTI
Cc: Kim B, Sam, Ron, Jake
Subject: Outline for a dialog....

Jack, 

What I wish to do is set some ground rules for our prospective dialog....... 

1.)  I'm not primarily coming out to have you instruct me on your worldview.  I believe that I already have a fair take on that view.  

2.)  Rather, I wish for you to consider the possible significance of the BPWH...... 

Ron has already opined that I am unlikely to get a fair hearing from you, and has recommended against such a trip.  

Well, I am admittedly a beggar, and beggars can't be too choosy, can we?  

Is there any chance that we could prove Ron wrong?  I, for one, am always on the lookout for a chance to prove Ron wrong.  

In a subsequent email, or two, I would like to set forth the ground that I wish to cover with you, in a one or two hour discussion, to be video-taped by Kim, as we did a couple of years ago, but now with a bit more structure.  

I intend to post my part of this exchange on the Open Minds forum...... https://openmindsforum.forumotion.com/t6p150-hello-cy-hello-omf-ii#324 

(cont.) 

On Aug 4, 2012, at 6:52 PM, JACK SARFATTI wrote:

nothing to hear - just come bearing in mind not Aug 16- 18 & I think Kim works at Trieste Sunday and Mondays?
if you dilly dally it will be too late. It has to be in August - not September.

On Aug 4, 2012, at 3:11 PM, Dan Smith wrote:

I'm just waiting to hear back from Kim.  


On Aug 4, 2012, at 5:01 PM, Jack Sarfatti wrote:

Of course & u need to pay him can do it tax exempt as usual via ISEP 

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 4, 2012, at 12:25 PM, Dan Smith wrote:

Jack, 

I'm suggesting that, besides this email exchange, that we employ Kim as an interlocutor wrt our proposed next video.  

I have a call into Kim to suggest this, in person.  

Also, let me introduce you to [...], who appears on the Open Minds forum...... 

https://openmindsforum.forumotion.com/t6p135-hello-cy-hello-omf-ii#323 

as Jake Reason.  He and I have been discussing the OEH v. the YEH.  This is what I need to discuss with you and Kim, as a topic for our proposed video.  

Dan 

Ok, allow me to compose a followup message, or two.......


to Jack,

(cont. from message above.....)

First of all, please consider the possibility the progress may not be perpetual. This issue relates particularly to the ETH v. the UTH, i.e. the extra- v. ultra-terrestrial hypotheses.

Most folks that you and I know are open to the possibility we have been visited by unearthly beings of one sort or another. If progress is perpetual, then it stands to reason that the ETH is true wrt these visitors. I believe that this represents your view of the situation.

OTOH, I believe that you are open to the possibility that the situation wrt the visitors may be more nuanced, i.e. they might, more accurately, be described as 'inter-dimensional' beings of some sort.

So far, so good.........

Now, allow me to introduce another, possibly very important, piece of the cosmic puzzle..... and this is your contribution, Jack, as much as anybody's...... this is the VALIS holographic computer in our future, which may have been instrumental in the phone call you received, as an adolescent.

It may be that our visitors arrive via the same source. And, it may also be that VALIS is the creator of our holographic/virtual reality. If so, it is a small step to supposing that this world has an optimized design plan, and that this plan is intended particularly to optimize our participation in a participatory universe. This is the basic premise of the BPWH.




(cont.)

dan wrote:Jake,

>>>> perpetual progress, for another few billion years, anyway.....?

This is the crux of the difference between us.....

Is Creation finite or infinite?

You suggest that the only Creation befitting an infinite Creator would be infinite.

I support the rationale that an eternal Creator will create eternally.

I think it irrational to presume that VALIS/G-d will cease to exist. IOW, Energy can not be destroyed.

Therefore even IF the universe ultimately collapsed to a singularity, such an "eschaton" would not constitute finality.

AS to the concept of "perpetual progress", I see it's continuum within a dispensational construct (ages/eons/epochs), which end and transition into another.

When all things pass away, all things become new.

But, you need to remind yourself, Jake, that your reasoning is based mainly upon the ETH.

This is reasonable, however I understand man to be a composite of ETH and UTH. (Body/Spirit. Hologram/Mind)

What you fail to understand is why most Christians support the UTH over the ETH. I have attempted to discuss this fact with you, over the past several years. Can you not even begin to appreciate why your fellow believers are overwhelmingly opposed to the ETH?

Most Christians are utterly ignorant to what these concepts mean. Ask them if Armstrong and Aldrin proved the ETH when they walked on the moon, and they will look at you like an Ostrich. Further, most are utterly ignorant of their own Bible....thinking that UT's comprise solely of Angels and Demons. In truth, there are numerous types of UT's in the Bible. And Christians also remain unaware there are ET's described in their Bible.

My fellow Christians belief's concerning UTH are founded in ignorance.

Only you and the Vatican appear to favor the ETH.

Correction: ETH and UTH.

But No, things are changing. There are protestant theologians (including PHD's) who have grown aware of these matters, discovered supportive Biblical reference, and are publishing.

I have a possible explanation for that, which we need to discuss.

The crux of the ETH v. the UTH has to do with the OEH v. the YEH. Am I right?

Partially.
I define the UTH to be an immaterial sentient which is partially unencumbered by space and time. Whereas, we, like the ETH, are restricted to space/time. Regardless of OEH or YEH.

No modern minded person still accepts the young earth hypothesis, except ours, truly.

What are we to make of this impasse?

Manifestations of Ignorance and Ego.

1. Biblical writings report creation to be ancient, such that even prior to earth becoming life sustainable, pre-existing creation was vast and ancient. Most Christians remain ignorant to these Biblical passages.

2. Our sciences have also confirmed both the OEH and OUH (Old Universe hypothesis). However they have not yet been able to confirm Biblical revelations that sentient creation was vast, pre-earth.

People who embrace the YEH remain ignorant to the above. And so one should wonder why? IMO, it resolves to 'Ego' being the culprit/resistance.


------------

It's a long weekend for us. I'll call you tomorrow

PS- I've been enjoying watching NASA TV re:MSL Mars Science Laboratory/Curiosity. It's going very well. Currently approx 60,000 miles from Mars (@edit 5:20 PM EDT) traveling at approx 8,000 mph and accelerating due to planetary gravity. Trajectory is right-on-target to with 500 meters of planned entry. ETA approx 11:30 PDT. And Mars is contributing with clear weather conditions. Exciting!

Jake,

Thank you very much for your response. Above all, I do wish to remain in contact, even when we agree to disagree on fundamental issues. So, yes, please do call me anytime tomorrow.

Understand that I am playing a long-shot. But I ask you whether it is a shot that we can afford not to take? This is the same proposition that I'm trying to present to Jack.

Basically what I'm asking from you, Jack and anyone within the sound of my voice, is to cut me a little slack, and humor me. Is this asking too much? Maybe it is, but can I be blamed for trying?

I think we all agree that we may need divine/external intervention to prevent a collapse of human civilization. I am presenting myself as a possible example of such intervention.

Creation may be infinite and eternal, and I believe that ours is, but not in materialistic, quantitative fashion. If you and I are an essential part of the best possible Creation, and if this Creation happens to be qualitatively infinite rather that quantitatively so, then we are talking about the BPWH. This is all I am asking of anyone, is to consider this possibility.

If this were the case, then it does explain why God appears to have been playing brinksmanship wrt human survival, and why 'he' might choose to intervene prophetically, as 'he' has appeared to do in the past.

Wrt to evangelical Christians, I present myself as the only known alternative to Armageddon/Tribulation. Do you know of any human alternatives, Jake?

My specific alternative is the MoAPS, i.e. a nonviolent, spiritual/intellectual revolution. It is a spiritual vision for the Endtimes. But, understand, Jake, that the Enditmes is only from our mortal perspective. Sub-specie Aeternitas, Creation is Eternal, but, as mere mortals, we experience Creation as finite. Does this make any sense to you? It is precisely on this crucial point that you fail to grasp the BPWH, IMHO.



(cont.)

Currently watching NASA TV Science News Conference at JPL.

http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Breaking.html

dan wrote:Jake,

Thank you very much for your response. Above all, I do wish to remain in contact, even when we agree to disagree on fundamental issues. So, yes, please do call me anytime tomorrow.

Will do.

Understand that I am playing a long-shot. But I ask you whether it is a shot that we can afford not to take? This is the same proposition that I'm trying to present to Jack.

As we know.... most people (lessor academics) often lump together "Theoretical Physicists" and "Philosophers" as two peas in a pod, which both speak in mumble jumble, and everything is up for grabs.

So defining target-audience is equally as important as defining topic and desired outcome. n'est ce pas?

Long-shot? Well maybe not. How about one topic:
"G-d VS VALIS/Future Hologram Computer"... Is there a difference?

That might induce a mini-viral response.

I would suggest 3 topics though, as people need variety to hold attention.

I think we all agree that we may need divine/external intervention to prevent a collapse of human civilization.

Man has always collapsed his own civilizations. But man can reverse that too. We've had the how-to curriculum for 2,000 years. And the Divine is still waiting on man. We don't need divine intervention. Wishing it, is a sin. Both a transgression and an iniquity. How so few people understand this. And yet it is required curriculum. Only the time it takes to understand is voluntary.

I am presenting myself as a possible example of such intervention.

You are not the only candle burning in the wind. Nor is your example more potentially world changing than Sarfatti's candle.

Wrt to evangelical Christians, I present myself as the only known alternative to Armageddon/Tribulation. Do you know of any human alternatives, Jake?

Yes. Several

From: Dan Smith
Date: August 6, 2012 10:25:22 AM EDT
To: JACK SARFATTI
Cc: Kim, Sam, Ron, David, Zielinski, Jake, Gary
Subject: Re: Outline for a  UFO video show...

Jack, 

It sounds to me as though we have a fair basis for a renewed dialog...... 

What I believe I can bring to this table is a bit more emphasis on the PoV of VALIS/God, which, TBMK, is not something that you and your physics 'fan-base' normally feel comfortable in emphasizing, with the possible exception of David.  

For instance, you make a distinction between morality and physics.  Yes, of course, superficially there is a difference.  But you also speak of Leibniz' physical action principle..... Surely, you are aware that the notion of the best possible world was produced by that same mind, and it seems entirely possible that the concepts of maximal-action and best-possible may be linked, in some deeper structural/mathematical sense.  We may simply be adding another dimension to our physical structure.  

Now, perhaps the greatest remaining distinction between Jackiantiy and Danianity is simply the technicality of the optimal placement of VALIS wrt the future horizon.  But we may already be on the same page, here, as well..... 

This placement of the future horizon should strongly depend on the optimal length for human history, which, in turn, should depend on the optimal trajectory for material progress.  Given that progress was never meant to be perpetual, then the (apparent) end of (material) progress may well signal the approach of our future horizon/VALIS.  

Then what, we may well ask......?  

Then we are homeward bound, our errand into the 'wilderness' having been completed.  

Some of us are surely not ready, just yet, to head back home, to Eternity.  All ye, all ye, in-free....? 

Hey, that's fine with me!  We have all the time in the world.  Just as long as we want to be down on the farm is fine, but once we've seen Paris/eternity, we may start feeling a bit homesick.  

There is a crucial consideration when it comes to the prolongation of Creation....... 

Do keep in mind that, from the PoV of God, Creation is eternal.  Only from the perspective of us mortals does it appear that Creation may end.  Going home means that we will be returning to the PoV of God, wherein Creation is truly Eternal.  

Are we still on the same page, Jack?  

Dan 

Jake, how does this sound? Does this answer any of your questions?

Jack, Albert and I seem to agree that the physical, space-time, universe need not be infinite.

I know, Jake, that you cannot conceive of an omnipotent God creating only a finite universe, but, down through the ages, most theists, and especially Christians, have gravitated toward a more anthropocentric model. It is the pantheists who take most pride in, allegedly, having anticipated an infinite world, wherein we creatures are lost in space and time.


11:40--------

Jake, please note that most folks, perhaps not you, however, are still operating under a Newtonian conception of an absolute/eternal time-frame, in which all of reality is necessarily contained.

By demonstrating the relativity of space-time, Einstein took a big step back toward a more self-contained or Prophetic view of the world. Yes?

Jack is adding to Relativity, the notion of a holographic VALIS @ our Omega Pt. or future horizon. This does bring us even closer to the Prophetic tradition. No?


2pm----------

From: Dan Smith
Date: August 6, 2012 1:18:56 PM EDT
To: JACK SARFATTI
Cc: 7 others.......
Subject: Re: Outline for a  UFO video show...

And, gosh, I almost forgot the issue of free-will and human nature........ 

I was forcefully reminded of this issue by today's featured op-ed piece....... http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/05/anything-but-human/ 

>>> By now, naturalist philosophers will suspect that there is something mystical or “spooky” about what I’m proposing. In fact, religion has survived the assaults of reductionism because religions address distinctively human concerns, concerns that ants and computers can’t have: Who am I? What is my place? What is the point of my life? But in order to reject reductionism, we don’t necessarily have to embrace religion or the supernatural. We need to recognize that nature, including human nature, is far richer than what so-called naturalism chooses to admit as natural. Nature includes the panoply of the lifeworld. <<< 

The broader question, I guess, is to what degree VALIS may or may not measure up to our traditional conception of God, given that we may or may not be created in the image of VALIS? 

And I'm sure that you non-physicists will be amazed by the depth of the discussions that can be engaged by scientists pursuing the cosmic truths.....! http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/



(cont.)

OK, I've read all your emails and links therein. Thank you

dan wrote:Jake, how does this sound? Does this answer any of your questions?

I see the Picasso.

Jack, Albert and I seem to agree that the physical, space-time, universe need not be infinite.

We're on the same page here. Personally i find the "Torus in Torsion" model most likely defines the form of our cosmos. Therefore there is a boundary.



But my view is not important to your's and Jack's discussion.

..... down through the ages, most theists, and especially Christians, have gravitated toward a more anthropocentric model.

Well my Bible explicitly states that there were many "sons-of-God" and Councils in the heavens, prior to the creation of the earth. Which necessarily implies that there were other worlds/abodes before us. And so as a Christan, I can not subscribe to Homo Sapien anthropocentric creation.

However we are in agreement concerning the Strong Anthropic Principle.

As an aside note ... the SAP inherently implies that the Cosmos is teeming with life.

But then again, my view is not important to your discussion, only to perhaps offer some talking points.

Jake, please note that most folks, perhaps not you, however, are still operating under a Newtonian conception of an absolute/eternal time-frame, in which all of reality is necessarily contained.

Yes, I understand the status quo. However I do believe that "when all things pass away, all things will become new". Which of course means I anticipate an end to all things. Eschaton

By demonstrating the relativity of space-time, Einstein took a big step back toward a more self-contained or Prophetic view of the world. Yes?

OK. I also perceive that Jack is a closet eschatologist and secretly driven to know and understand G-d. However I highly respect his need to remain scientific in his communications.

Jack is adding to Relativity, the notion of a holographic VALIS @ our Omega Pt. or future horizon. This does bring us even closer to the Prophetic tradition. No?

Absolutely. GF and RTB should also be able to piece that together.

Jake and I had an hour-long convo concerning the above matters, and whether or not I should head out to SF. He encourages me to go. He does point out that Jack hews to a pessimistic view of humanity, in that, at least, things may get a lot worse, before they get better.

We are not sure what part of Jack's makeup may be tied up with this pessimism.

We spent about half the time discussing eschatology as it may relate to current events, particularly in the middle east. Jack's pessimism may be tied in with an eschatological outlook.

Jake and I seem to be in agreement on several points......

1.) The Eschaton could be imminent.

2.) Armaggedon/tribulation can be avoided.

3.) This avoidance is predicated on a spiritual interpretation of Rvelation.

4.) A MoAPS of biblical proportions should be expected in the Endtimes, leading to a Millennial dispensation.

5.) He is mildly sympathetic with my JC gambit, but is not volunteering to help me explain it to others.

Here is where we seem to disagree........

1.) That there could or would be multiple worlds requiring repeated X-events for their salvation. 99% of xianity would demur, on this point.

2.) Given that there is a logical link between the x-event and the Eschaton, the idea of multiple eschatons within a single space-time frame, or even within a many-worlds cosmology makes precious little sense. No?

These points stand out in Jake's last post. However, I had not seen this post when he called, and this differentiation did not come up in our conversation, despite our extensive discussion of eschatology. Perhaps we need some additional clarification on this point.


5:30----------

About an hour ago, I offered to meet with Jack in SF, later this week.


8:30---------

I'm due into SF tomorrow evening.........



(cont.)

Hi Dan
I've been reading your posts for the last few days since rejoining OMF after a few years absence. And feel led to feel a need to learn more of this subject you are discussing. I have never had any conversations with you but I and Jake reason are old friends from the original OMF. It would take days if not weeks to find time to read all 11 pages of this thread. If you or Jake could find time to send me a PM a quick synopsis of this subject it would be greatly appreciated.
I can't say why this exchange so interest me, but it does. Being for most of my life a believer in only fact over the last 5 years I have had a Epiphany to honor my Intuitive and Spiritual side. Again I really do not know at the moment why I feel the need to ask for this request, but if you can indulgence me I feel I may have something to contribute.
By the way my real name is Jim feel free to address me as such.

Jim,

Nice to see you back again, and I'm glad that there are aspects of the BPWH that interest you.

My preferred means of communication is either on the phone or on the blog. We could also do a chat function, either here or on google, for instance, as long as we can save a copy of it. I'll send you my phone # by PM.

IMO, the best way to get into the BPWH is via a God's-eye perspective (GPOV). Can you think of any way that you would like to improve the world? Just name it, and I'll explain how God has you covered. Once you get the hang of it, you can then explain it to others, just as well as I can.

There are several crucial points to keep in mind concerning this 'game'........

1.) Would your BPW be finite or infinite? Most folks start by assuming that the BPW would be infinite. But, right off the bat, an infinite world with an infinite number of creatures would diminish the prospect of a reciprocal personal relationship with out Creator.

2.) But our finite seeming world is infinite, because it includes heaven/eternity.

3.) Death is a big problem for most folks. Well, there is no death.

4.) The Eschaton is another problem. The end of Creation is seen only from our mortal perspective. From GPOV, Creation is eternal, and is an essential aspect of heaven/eternity.

5.) There is just one sapient soul, which we timeshare with God and our brothers and sisters. This one soul was never lost, and never could have been, despite what the bible-pounders may tell you.

6.) We are the co-creators of the BPW. It's not really possible to create a second-best world. Every last one of us 'sinners' is essential to the makeup of the BPW.

7.) This is not the only world, but it does make up the vast proportion of Creation. If there is to be diversity, most of it will have to be right here. And it is!

8.) According to #6, we cannot fail to be saved. In becoming saved, we become One with God. This is the meaning of Redemption/Apocatastasis. We already are one with God. Our seeming separation is a temporary 'illusion', and it is a crucial 'illusion'.

9.) Material growth and progress have been the driving force behind human history. Because the BPW is necessarily finite, the increasingly obvious limits to our material growth and progress were an integral part of Creation. At the optimal time in our history, we would be confronted by these limits. So, you see, Creation was always intended as a Bait&Switch operation. We were baited with material riches, and then, at the last moment, we are redirected toward the Spirit, using both carrot and stick, if you will. It's that simple.


Well, Jim, have I left anything out? Have I answered all your questions?


I'm going to need to get ready to head out to Jack's place on the Bay, this afternoon.....


The above material is what we wish to cover in Kim's video. What else should we cover?


Ok.....

10.) Creation is a nearly closed time-like curve (CTC). This is the Ouroboric, tail-eating serpent. The Alpha is the tail, Omega is the head. There is a crucial 'spark-gap' between them. This circuit is only about 6,000 of our mortal years, i.e. all of recorded history. We are now at our maximum level of population and consumption. With D-day/MoAPS, we will enter the Millennial kingdom of God, which may last just as long as we wish. I'm suggesting 200 years. By the end of that time, we will only number about 144 million, inhabiting, say, 12 megalopolises. 12 Motherships will evacuate us to heaven. 144 thousand of us will be returned, via Noah's Arks, to the 12 primordial megalithic communities, thus completing the life circuit. Nota-bene, that this is a finite Circuit and not an infinite cycle!


6:20--------

Enroute from Atlanta to SFO.......

Not yet sure if there will be a meetup this evening or not.

According to his blog post, Jack is being hard-headed, as usual, about the physics.

It's a little bit late for me to turn around, don't ya think. There will have to be a serious charm offensive, fortified with generous wine.

How far can we push the holographic/virtual reality paradigm? Is Jack going to totally block that? Perhaps.

My approach to physics is metaphorical. Is there a problem with that?


7:20-----------

Last time I checked, Jack was subscribing to the Chardin/Tipler Omega Point, which may or may not be similar to Tamara's Omega........ as in this quote from Jack's blog, see above.....

In above Tamara Davis's Fig 1.1 her Ph.D...... The apex of the Pyramid is infinite metric time - finite conformal Penrose END TIME for us idealized as Immortal Gods (central vertical world line) is the origin of the past light cone of our observer-dependent OMEGA POINT (not same as Tipler's) and it is our future cosmological de Sitter dark energy event horizon. It is a CONSCIOUS GOD(D) HOLOGRAM 2D SCREEN NULL GEODESIC COMPUTER projecting us RETRO-CAUSALLY as 3D dynamic hologram images in literally a VIRTUAL UNIVERSE SUPER-COMPUTER SIMULATION.

Right there is everything I'll ever need from Jack, besides his smiling face elaborating upon these various Omegas. Hey, the more the merrier.

Doesn't anyone take these matters seriously? These are not just mathematical abstractions. Well, they are until the SoT breathes fire into them.

Jack's transformative experience occurred when, at age ten, he got a phone call from Omega. My call didn't come until I was 33. What are we going to do about these cosmic communications?


8:30----------

Jack believes in perpetual progress, as does Tipler, leading up to an Omega, which is a digital version of God. Within that computer, we will become immortal avatars of ourselves.




(cont.)

On the plane coming out here, yesterday, as you can see, I was almost ready to turn around. But the wine-soaked charm offensive last evening, especially over dinner, may have turned the situation around. We will see, when Jack and I meet up, late this morning, whether the flavor still lasts.

He is quite adamant that I have an outline/script prepared for him, but I am being equally adamant that a potentially earthshaking conversation should be recorded live/spontaneously, so as not to diminish any of the potential drama.

With that in mind, I should keep my big mouth shut until then, and we shall see (hear) what we shall see........


8am------------

What few notes I'll make, will be made offline, and then I can post them here, after the fact. We will not be meeting, for another 2-3 hours. If Jack is amenable, we will use a voice recorder.


.

Thank you Dan
Hope your trip goes well. Now that I understand the thread I know why I was drawn to it. Since this is how I try live my life doing what I can to make the world better with needing to be rewarded for my deeds. Simply doing what is right because I can, Anyways I think I will sit back and observe for a while to get a clearer understanding of where the conversation is before jumping in. I,m in the process of opening a new business and simply do not have the time to go back read all the previous posts. Jim

Jim,

I appreciate your being here, and any chance you get to interject your thoughts will be helpful. Otherwise this is pure soliloquy, which does get tiring.


In the meantime, it's about time for Jack to rise and shine. I was out walking on Russian Hill, so whatever additional outline I have is just in my head.

Just got a msg from Jack to go head and meet Kim at the CT. Jack will come later.....


10:30 pdt----------

At the CT, Kim is about to join me to discuss the outline for our convo w/ Jack.......

Kim does most of the work on Jack's Stardrive.


11:30-----------

Kim I got some DV tape for tomorrow. And, while I'm holding a table for Jack to show up, Kim went to get a tripod for his little camera, just in case we want more than an audio recording for today. We did a 16' audio of our preliminary discussion, about the ETH v. the UTH..... Is it possible invent a time machine, and who believes what. Kim and I are both theists. We think that Jack is, too, but he is not out about it.

Jagdish has just joined me........



(cont.)

Hi IP/Jim,

Yes Dan's mission is somewhat complicated. He believes his Best Possible World Hypothesis (BPWH) is divinely inspired. And that it offers the world the best philosophical construct to politically navigate through our currently contentious global religious quagmire. Or IOW, a philosophical hypothesis, that if adapted by world powers/PtB and proselytized through the world, would serve to replace the need for a bloody Armageddon (four horseman of the Apocalypse).

Dan is Christian, however many of his views are heretical to virtually all Christian/Judeo sects and denominations. And so what he is trying to do of late, is to seek ways to find 'common ground' among theology, science and philosophy with a purpose of inducing dialog across these venues of human awareness.

Dan's faith in his BPWHypothesis is unwavering. He truly feels it provides the fundamental understanding to who and what G-d is, who/what we are, and where we are going.

And this of course, is why so many tell him he is crazy. But he's not a dunce, au contraire! which makes him an interesting subject to some.

Dan is also a ufologist, a listed Aviary, and has had an on-going 21 year relationship with Dr. Ron Pandolfi, a senior US Intelligence Analyst. Dan maintains that his relationship with Ron is sanctioned by certain PtB that are referred to by ufologers as MJ-12. And that his BPWH is being monitored as potential due diligence considerations for a post-disclosure world.

Cheers.

PS: I trust Dan will find this synopsis reasonable.

dan wrote:Jake and I had an hour-long convo concerning the above matters, and whether or not I should head out to SF. He encourages me to go.
>
>
>
>
Here is where we seem to disagree........

1.) That there could or would be multiple worlds requiring repeated X-events for their salvation. 99% of xianity would demur, on this point.

Multiple Worlds = yes
Multiple X-events = no

Why? well for one....we are the only world which Biblical scripture teaches is the prison planet of Fallen Angels and their Archangel.

If other worlds exist, they don't have this problem.

2.) Given that there is a logical link between the x-event and the Eschaton, the idea of multiple eschatons within a single space-time frame, or even within a many-worlds cosmology makes precious little sense. No?

Well, I understand "eschaton" as having variable meaning, as well as being relativistic.

examples:
1/ a super nova would be an eschaton to those in it's wake.
2/ A biblical type "Christ return" would induce a spiritual eschaton.
3/ The universe rolling up as a scroll (lights out!/return to singularity) would be an eschaton.

The first two could occur within "a single space-time frame".

dan wrote:

11:30-----------

Kim I got some DV tape for tomorrow. And, while I'm holding a table for Jack to show up, Kim went to get a tripod for his little camera, just in case we want more than an audio recording for today. We did a 16' audio of our preliminary discussion, about the ETH v. the UTH..... Is it possible invent a time machine, and who believes what. Kim and I are both theists. We think that Jack is, too, but he is not out about it.

Jagdish has just joined me........

Glad to hear.

Kim's a theist?, I didn't know that. And Jack?..... I think his life is a testament of man driven to know and understand G-d. But he could lean toward pantheism either way. I am curious as to what he thinks of the probability or possibility of the universe teeming with life?

Dan, don't wing it! Make an outline, or at least commit to a few topic/subject points.

Best to you all,
Cheers
Rick/Jake

Rick/Jake,

Thank you for the kind words and good synopsis of my concerns. I'm here with Jack Sarfatti for a couple of more days, and we'll be doing some filming this afternoon, so that is where I'm presently focussing.

More response, later.........

.

Hi Jake

"Dan is Christian, however many of his views are heretical to virtually all Christian/Judeo sects and denominations. And so what he is trying to do of late, is to seek ways to find 'common ground' among theology, science and philosophy with a purpose of inducing dialog across these venues of human awareness."

Yeah I too fall into category in my own way. I do believe in God but not in the conventional sense but more that all is God. I do believe that the man Jesus is true but that we are all children of God so you and I are sons of God as well. And I do enjoy to go to church when time permits, but mostly for the music and fellowship (well truth be told living in Mississippi I only attend a mostly Black church because White Gospel music is boring. Sorry if it sounds racist I do not mean too be but in truth it is a bit)

What I do not believe in is Heaven, Hell. I believe in reincarnation. I do not believe the bible is to be taken as a literal truth. The old testament is just a rip off of the Sumerian tales at least the first book and the animal sacrifice, rituals, Wars/Killing is a bit barbaric for me. The new testament well no one really knows who wrote those books and I believe it has been so redacted and edited to be completely trusted. That being said there are some truths and lessons to be learned IMO but I hold all faiths equally none better then the other. Well there are a couple I find wacko but I will keep those to myself.
I just so happened to be born into a christian family so I do not mind being labeled as one. But I find so so many people who call themselves christian are not very Christlike.

But most of all I am a Human being first.

I like this exchange about creating TBPW worth while though I do not believe it would ever be adopted by the current PTB it does not serve their need to continue to retain their power. But that does not relieve us in our duty to strive to do what we can according to our abilities to try as we can personally to try and make this a better world as best we can.

From: Dan Smith 
Date: August 10, 2012 9:18:22 AM PDT
To: JACK SARFATTI, Kim
Cc: Gary, Eric/jake, CoK
Subject: Today's topics......

Jack and Kim,

Today's topics will be two things that none of us know anything about, and which most of us don't think even think exist........

But, I ask you, will this prevent any of us from discoursing about them at considerable and erudite(?) length, especially when fortified by the best possible amount of Jack's Dalmore single malt whiskey, since 1839?  

Today's two topics will be heaven and the soul......... 

And here is a special request from Gary......

>>> Dan ask Jack to discuss why Tegmark Level I and Level III worlds are fungible and what that means for Bohm pilot wave and Valentini SLC  <<<<<  

I suggest that we do a call-in show, and that Gary be prepared to ask his question directly of Jack.  

CoK did see the five minute segment that Jack posted to facebook and utube, that he did on his iPhone, and he was not impressed.  What Kim did yesterday was a much better technical quality, and the content was somewhat improved.  

And here is the latest and greatest preview of coming attractions....... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3zEqXTSWtE




(cont.)

dan wrote:
10.) Creation is a nearly closed time-like curve (CTC). This is the Ouroboric, tail-eating serpent. The Alpha is the tail, Omega is the head. There is a crucial 'spark-gap' between them. This circuit is only about 6,000 of our mortal years, i.e. all of recorded history. We are now at our maximum level of population and consumption. With D-day/MoAPS, we will enter the Millennial kingdom of God, which may last just as long as we wish. I'm suggesting 200 years. By the end of that time, we will only number about 144 million, inhabiting, say, 12 megalopolises. 12 Motherships will evacuate us to heaven. 144 thousand of us will be returned, via Noah's Arks, to the 12 primordial megalithic communities, thus completing the life circuit. Nota-bene, that this is a finite Circuit and not an infinite cycle!

Here's the rub of what Dan suggests how will a population of 7-9 Billion get to 144 million in 200 years? (They are currently setting up to do this...the American Liberty Movement is currently tracking the construction of the police state apparatus and its personnel and equipment. I guess they are way ahead of Dan on production schedules or is it Dan represents their production imperatives? ET's operate on imperatives per people who have had first hand interactions with them.)

This quote above by Dan are current elite ideas. See the Georgia Guidestones.

http://www.thegeorgiaguidestones.com/

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/magazine/17-05/ff_guidestones/?currentPage=all

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones

http://vigilantcitizen.com/sinistersites/sinister-sites-the-georgia-guidestones/


and see this:

The Great Culling has begun: Will your genetic lineage survive?

Mike Adams
Natural News
Aug 10, 2012

The “Great Culling” of the human population has quietly begun. Covertly, insidiously, mercilessly, a global depopulation agenda has been launched. As this plays out, the vast majority of the human race will be removed from the gene pool. Genetically annihilated. Will you and your genetic lineage survive?


That’s what this article explores: WHAT are the real threats to your life, your offspring and your genetic integrity? HOW can you protect yourself from those threats? WHY is a global depopulation agenda being pursued? The more you understand these answers, the greater your odds of surviving the great culling.

First, let’s dismiss any idea that the great culling is some sort of fanciful conspiracy theory. World power brokers like Bill Gates and Ted Turner openly discuss reducing the world population by 90%. Bill Gates, in particular, happily funds infertility technologies, vaccines and GMOs, all of which are purposely designed to cause infertility and halt new baby births, thereby sharply contracting the human population.

The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, for example provided significant funding to the University of North Carolina to develop ultrasound infertility technology that could render human sperm unviable for up to six months. Reported by the BBC, this technology was proven effective on rats, and it’s only one of 78 different research projects the Gates Foundation has funded under the guise of “global health programs.”
http://www.naturalnews.com/034834_Bill_Gates_sperm_infertility.html

Bill Gates famously explained his depopulation agenda through the use of vaccines with this quote, delivered to a live TED audience in 2010:

The world today has 6.8 billion people… that’s headed up to about 9 billion. Now if we do a really great job on new vaccines, health care, reproductive health services, we could lower that by perhaps 10 or 15 percent. (http://www.naturalnews.com/029911_vaccines_Bill_Gates.html)

“Eliminate the weak”

That this is the desire of the global controllers is no secret. It’s not debated. This is what today’s politicians, bureaucrats and even some misinformed activists of the “environmental” movement wish to achieve — the reduction of world population to under one billion people. To them, humanity is seen as a threat to the planet and even to itself.

From one point of view, this analysis may actually be correct. It’s difficult to see how today’s mindless masses of dumbed-down consumers — steeped in video games, television and junk food — can offer any meaningful contributions to the future of human civilization. So, from the point of view of the global controllers, “culling the herd” of humanity is actually a good thing. It makes humanity stronger, they say, in much the same way that culling the weaklings from a herd of wild animals improves the aggregate gene pool of the targeted species as a whole.

The globalists argue that today’s human gene pool is stalled. The weak and the stupid reproduce just as much as everybody else — if not more so. The human gene pool is actually devolving, they say, and the only way to bring it back to a point where we have a species capable of reaching for the stars is to eliminate those who aren’t smart enough to deserve a spot in the human gene pool.

The word for this is, of course, eugenics. Adolf Hitler pursued the same philosophy: Improve the human race through genocide. Eliminate the weak, the ugly, the stupid. Fire up the incinerators, disarm the target race to be exterminated, and herd them into gas chambers or open pits.

Modern eugenics

Toda’s eugenicists are more subtle. They’ve learned, through experience, that openly gassing entire populations doesn’t win over the hearts and minds of the public. So they’ve developed covert methods of accomplishing the same thing. These coverts methods include convincing people to eat genetically modified foods — which promote infertility — to drink fluoride, take vaccines, use synthetic chemicals, increase abortions and pursue other actions that either kill people outright or drastically reduce rates of reproduction.

The idea behind these is that, first off, the culling of the human race can now be accomplished without all the horrifying images of Nazi Germany’s gas chambers. While the Jews in World War II had to be forcibly lined up and herded into railroad cars, today’s eugenics victims willfully line up at pharmacies to be injected with flu vaccines containing stealth cancer viruses that accomplish the same thing: Death.

Death by vaccines is just slower and more covert than death by Zyklon B.

The great intelligence test

Importantly, the genocidal properties of vaccines, GMOs, chemical food additives, medications and other synthetic chemicals function as a sort of intelligence test for the population. Those who routinely take vaccines are, of course, stupid. Removing the stupid people — the “useless eaters” — from the gene pool is one of the goals of the global controllers. Thus, vaccinepropaganda serves as the perfect filter for removing “stupid genes” from the human gene pool. This is no doubt why globalists so aggressively push vaccines on low-income families — they equate “low income” with “not qualified to reproduce.”

Importantly, vaccines contain stealth cancer viruses that are passed along through multiple generations. The SV40 viruses introduced to the population through polio vaccines in the 1950′s still exists today in the grandchildren of those who were first vaccinated. This is openly admitted by top scientists who helped develop these vaccines (http://www.naturalnews.com/033584_Dr_Maurice_Hilleman_SV40.html).

Meanwhile, the efficacy of these vaccines is completely and utterly fabricated, as has been exposed by two whistleblower scientists who blew the lid on scientific fraud taking place at Merck (http://www.naturalnews.com/036328_Merck_mumps_vaccine_False_Claims_Ac…).

Many pharmaceuticals directly cause infertility, by the way. Propecia, a Merck baldness drug, has now been linked to infertility and ejaculation disorders (http://www.naturalnews.com/035568_male_baldness_propecia_infertility….).

The game is on: You are living a reality game called “Survivor”

The big picture here is this: The game is on. You are a contestant in a reality game called “Survivor.” If you win, you survive and your genes go on to represent the future of the human race. If you lose, your genetic lineage is annihilated… permanently removed from the future of the human race.

My goal is to help you — the intelligent reader of NaturalNews — ensure that your genetic material remains in the “survivor” side of this equation. I want you to beat Bill Gates at his own game. And surviving is winning

Remember: the goal of the controllers is to kill off roughly 90% of the existing population, either through a fast-kill weapon release, or the “slow kill” method of causing global infertility. While Bill Gates only publicly mentioned 10% – 15% in his 2010 quote (above), Ted Turner publicly announced, on video, that he believes the population should be reduced by roughly 70% to the “two billion” level. You can see that astonishing video, filmed by Luke Rudkowski, at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-X3sJKtVJE

Behind the scenes at secret meetings, the real reduction levels being discussed are in the 90% range. If this is the real goal, it would mean a typical person only has a 1 in 10 chance of winning the survivor game.

In this article, I show you how to flip those odds, giving you roughly a 90% chance of winning the survivor game. That’s the ultimate victory: Surviving, having healthy babies, and raising them to contribute to the betterment of human civilization. There’s probably very little you or I can do to stop the culling of 90% of the population, as many people today seem bent on their own self destruction. But at least we can make sure we remain in the 10% of the survivors who go on to have healthy offspring and contribute to a future of liberty, freedom and spiritual advancement.

So, to begin, let’s first explore the threats to your life and your fertility. These are things you must avoid if you hope to win the survivor game.

The 7 threats to your survival and fertility

1) GMOs – Engineered to grow poisonous chemicals right in the crops themselves, GMOs are also designed to cause reproductive failure in any mammal consuming them.

2) Vaccines – Loaded with stealth cancer viruses and chemical adjuvants, vaccines are the primary cause behind today’s rising rates of infertility, birth defects and spontaneous abortions. Vaccines are aggressively pushed in minority neighborhoods and low-income areas.

3) Chemtrails – Formulated with aluminum, barium and other heavy metals, chemtrails cause human exposure to toxic metals that impair brain function and neurological function. This exposure may contribute to birth defects and deformities, but details need to be further explored.

4) Prescription medications – Prescription drugs and chemotherapy damage DNA, promote impotence and decrease both sperm quality and egg quality.

5) Chemical food additives – These chemicals damage DNA and egg quality, causing infertility to be passed down through multiple generations of females. What you eat today can damage the eggs of your great-great-great granddaughter. Poisons in the food supply right now include sodium nitrite (in nearly all processed meats), MSG, aspartame and chemical preservatives.

6) Biological weapons release – A possible “fast kill” scenario being explored by world governments, a biological weapons release can burn through the population with high kill rates while being conveniently blamed on any desired scapegoat such as a fictional terrorist group. “We are at war with Eurasia!”

7) Food fascism leading to starvation – Corporations like Monsanto are seeking total global domination (and corporate ownership) over the entire food supply. This concept is called “food fascism,” and it would allow corporations and governments to determine who eats and who starves. Notice how home gardens are under attack? (http://www.naturalnews.com/032960_Julie_Bass_home_gardening.html) Raw milk centers are raided at gunpoint? (http://www.naturalnews.com/033220_Rawesome_Foods_armed_raids.html) Backyard ranching is being criminalized? (http://www.naturalnews.com/035585_Michigan_farms_raids.html) This is all part of the food fascism assault that’s already underway in our world.

Those are the top threats to your survival and fertility. What follows next is how to beat them.

The 10 strategies for beating the odds and winning the survivor game

#1) Avoid all poisons – These means eliminating all GMOs, fluoride, aspartame, MSG, artificial fragrances, chemical medications, chemical food additives and all other synthetic chemicals from your life. For most families, this means gutting your pantry, bathroom counters, garage chemicals and lawn care chemicals. Remember: The globalist controllers refuse to eat GMO and consume only organic foods. Ever wonder why? Because they know the chemical-laden, genetically modified foods are being used to kill off the uninformed masses.

#2) Use nutrition to protect your DNA – This is absolutely crucial. Good nutrition (superfoods, high mineralization, antioxidants, plant concentrates, etc.) can prevent DNA damage from exposure to low-levels of radiation as well as toxic chemicals. Above all, good nutrition boosts reproductive health, sperm quality, egg quality, and even brain function (so you think more clearly and don’t get suckered into globalist propaganda).

#3) Do not vaccinate your children – This is a key defense against the great culling. Those who vaccinate their children condemn them to increased risks of infertility, thereby putting their entire genetic line at risk of annihilation. By avoiding vaccines and allowing your children to naturally experience the chicken pox or measles, you actually make them stronger and more resistant to future infections.

#4) Grow your own food – The only food you can truly trust is food you grow yourself. Using heirloom seeds, ocean water trace mineral concentrates, soil probiotics and rainwater, grow food that nourishes your body and brain. Save your seeds and re-plant them each season. Over time, they will adapt to your specific soils and climate, improving yields and seed viability. See our heirloom survival seed solution at: http://www.supplysource.com/surthrival-seed-can

#5) Learn skills of self defense and physical security – Be prepared to physically defend your life, home and property against tyrants, looters, criminals or even zombies (!). Learn the fundamental skills of self defense, weapon competency and marksmanship. I teach this information in a downloadable preparedness course at:
http://programs.webseed.com/Health_Ranger_Live_Defense__NN.htm

#6) Reject mainstream propaganda – In order to protect your mind, you must refuse to subject yourself to the mind-numbing propaganda of the mainstream media. This means throwing out your television, shutting off cable news, and shifting to information sources such as truth-telling websites and books.

#7) Do not try to “save” everyone. Most of the masses will be culled. They are already beyond hope, having been poisoned with fluoride, vaccines, GMOs and other chemicals into a state of total denial. Have compassion for them, for they are the last of their kind. But do find other aware and informed survivors and get to know them. Share skills and knowledge. Form a community defense plan for a worst-case scenario possibility. Cross-train each other to spread skills across the group. There is strength in numbers.

# Follow a philosophy of core redundancies. Examine all the critical infrastructure necessary to support your life — food, water, heat, shelter, emergency medicine, defense, communications, etc. — and put at minimum a second layer of redundancy in place for each one.

#9) Train yourself for mental adaptability. In order to survive, you must not allow yourself to ever be locked into the “tunnel vision” of narrow thinking. To survive, you must be able to adapt, solve problems, and use resources in innovative ways. Training for this can include solving mental puzzles (including playing “problem solving” puzzle video games), exploring the outdoors, learning new skills (such as juggling), and trying out new hobbies. Do not let your mind stagnate. You will need it to be flexible.

#10) Avoid radiation exposure. Nothing damages your DNA faster than radiation, and sources of radiation are all around us. From the TSA body scanners at the airport to the CT scans ordered by your doctor, these harmful, ionizing radiation procedures damage your DNA and compromise fertility. Avoid using cell phones, Smart Meters and even wi-fi, if possible. Especially avoid medical imaging scans, dental X-rays and security scans of all kinds. Radiation damage is cumulative, meaning it gets progressively worse over time as you are exposed to repeated doses of low-level radiation.

Don’t be a victim, be a survivor

The point of all this information is simple: The “Great Culling” is upon us. (That’s also the name of a new documentary coming out that you’ll see announced here on NaturalNews.)

Population reduction has begun. For many, it’s already too late for their children and grandchildren because their DNA has been compromised beyond repair. They won’t realize this until their children or grandchildren can’t have their own children, but the damage has already been done now… today… in our time.

Remember: The eggs that produce a woman’s granddaughter are formed inside the womb of her own daughter during the time that daughter is forming in her own womb. (Yeah, really.) What a pregnant woman eats today, in other words, directly shapes the egg quality of her granddaughter. This also means it takes, at minimum, two generations to recover from toxic chemical exposure.

Years ago, I coined the term “Genopocalypse.” That genopocalypse is now under way, happening right in front of us. But most people aren’t aware of it, so they easily fall victim to it. But through awareness, education and proactive strategies of self-preservation, we can each refuse to become a victim of the depopulation agenda.

You are a survivor. That’s probably why you read NaturalNews. Now it’s time to put your knowledge and awareness into action. Make the changes outlined in this article — starting right now — and safeguard not only your own future, but the future of your entire genetic line for generations to come.

That's a reduction of 35,000,000 per year - approximately 95,890 souls eliminated without prodgeny per day.

Now, um, where exactly are the volunteers for this?

Dan, you don't happen to have any children do you?

Fear sells

leftnut wrote:Fear sells

Only to those that buy into it. I personally try to allow people to believe what they wish without judgement. As long as they are not harming anyone that is.

Fear sells? I suppose you guys haven't been reading white papers over the last 10 years. I'm just parroting the globals...and the math doesn't lie.

As far as I'm concerned when it comes to the globalist's favorite topic of depopulation, it's a legit question.

By all accounts when they discuss it at their cute little yacht meetings they aren't volunteering themselves or their family members to go stand in the planned lines at the incinerators at the FEMA camps already built and with companies who've agreed to contracts to man them in 72 hours from point of notice.

But their quick to point fingers at all of you as quote, "useless eaters".

That's ok, I'm not surprised since most people can't quote current events in detail and supporting or associative documents further back than in a 2 week span. That's miopic vision and is to a eugenic advantage.

What's that they say about a predator attack? The only thing I have to do is run faster than the next guy.

I took up jogging a very long time ago. Figure it out.

Cy,

As we progress into the Millennium, God's kingdom, the Earth will become more attractive, but heaven will become more attractive still...... folks will by dying to get in.

Also, I believe it was Jesus who admonished, in the latter days...... woe be unto those who are with child or give suck, in those days. Does this come from God? IOW, God will be using both a carrot and stick to encourage our exodus via the pearly gates.

What do you suggest?

.

Cy

You would be surprised there more non elites that are aware of these plans for the so called useless eaters then you might think. I guess it just depends on what circles you run in. This subject was brought to my attention by my New wife about 5 years ago soon after we first met.

But I have to say she was reluctant because after many years of soap-boxing to others she had grown tired either not being heard or worse thought of being crazy. So basically unless someone asks we just do not speak about, those who need to know do, and those who do not know choose not too. This may seem harsh but since I believe that life does not end with the death of the body I am not overly concerned about it. IMO we all have to go though 3D existence many times before we graduate to a higher spiritual/vibrational/dimensional level of being. How many levels there may be is beyond my current ability to know, but hey I'm eager to find out when I am released from this reality. Of course my views are not fact but what heart/intuition tells me is true for me.


Dan

I am wondering if your choice of words like GOD and Heaven are because they are easier for others to relate to or you believe these things to exist in the literal sense. I am not implying either is right or wrong just trying to get a better understanding of how you view things.

As far as this idea that humans must be baited with a carrot and stick for some reason rubs me wrong. I am not saying I know it is a wrong belief, i do not know. But my intuition tells me it this line of thinking is along the lines that humans as a whole can not on their own evolve but must be led like a farm animal. If I am misunderstanding I am sorry but if I do not ask i can not know.

One last thing I am just curious on your stance on gifts of the spirit/psychic abilities.

JIM