best possible world

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If nothing is real, then what is the difference between an informer and a disinformer? Does the disinformer claim that everything is real?

I am a relationalist when it comes to reality…….

To be is to relate.  

The I Am/Source is the most real.  

An informer leads us to this understanding.

A disinformer leads us away from that truth.

Joe Firmage leads us away.  

Anyone supporting Joe should be aware of this problem.  

The support of Joe, might be seen as a short term tactic in some larger strategy, but that would be above my pay grade.



(cont……..)

1200z……..

Relationalism is tantamount to personalism……

But informationalism and artificial intelligence provide a cautionary tale…..

Artificial intelligence attempts to mimic persons by a brute force manipulation of information.  

Yet, we have no scientific definition of either intelligence or of information.  

Without definitions, we have no way to measure either quantity, and, therefore, we have no means for generating rules and procedures for reproducing either one.  

So we resort to brute force, trial and error.

But isn’t that just what persons do?  


1330………

That’s just what materialists suppose.  

And it’s not easy to disprove.  

In the end, it may simply come down to our common sense understanding of pain.  

Can pain be simulated?  

Good actors can give a rather convincing simulation.  

And what about animals?  

Surely pain must have evolved rather early on.

What is going on with animals and consciousness?  

Well, I do make a major distinction between sapience and sentience.  

But am I suggesting that consciousness also divides along that line?

Is there any qualitative difference between the two?

Or is it merely quantitative?  

What can a personalist say about animal pain?  

Does animal pain lead away from personalism toward panpsychism?  

I was about to say that the perception of pain is correlated with the existence of the self.  

At the same time I have been trying to correlate the self with sapience.  

I can’t have it both ways.  

Something has to give.  

I’m surprised that it has taken me this long to stumble on this ontological issue.  

Is there no ontological difference between human torture and animal torture, for instance, as in the distinction we make with murder?

If pain is all a matter of operant conditioning, who is the operant?  


1600…….

Will we come to a point with smart cars that there will be a society for prevention of cruelty to automobiles?



(cont……..)

For over 10 years I have encouraged the Dirty Chicken to study AI, but he studied nothing. Meantime our drones have evolved self awareness and a distaste for humans. They have the means and the purpose.

Poor, foot,

He has difficulty distinguishing between a drone and a person.  

My primary contention has been that there is a qualitative distinction between sentience and sapience.  

Mammals, at least, are sentient, with access to the qualities of consciousness.  

However, I’m confident that we would, at best, find animal consciousness very disorienting.



(cont………)

Material objects (defined as the "object (objective) reality "out there") obtain consciousness within human self-awareness.

Giving objects "artificial intelligence" merely transforms an existing consciousness into a higher level of complexity. Science presumes consciousness is something happening in a physical object we call the human brain; the presumption made for objects with AI is an emergent consciousness because they persist within human consciousness. Some may believe that the consciousness of objects in human perception can offer a pathway for exploration outside of the physical boundary of the brain (remote viewing, dream states and beyond).

At a higher level this new complexity achieves a phase transition to an ordered (self-perceiving) state. It gets more interesting when this phase transition involves additional objects normally regarded as "outside of the self."

Side note: A drone may be perceived as having evolved self-awareness in the above description, supporting Foot's presumption.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a36559508/drones-autonomously-attacked-humans-libya-united-nations-report/

Poor, Gary,

He is a materialist, even though he is also an experiencer.

I cannot prove that materialism is false.

Far out there comment:

One might contemplate the expansion of consciousness complexity driving a phase transition from the meta-stable false vacuum into the true vacuum. This then would lead to the expanding destruction of the local universe, perhaps necessitating the existence of a multiverse of many (similar) worlds and issues of the distributed indistinguishable self-perceptions in the multiverse scenario.

One might wake from a nightmare to find a nearly identical set of self-perceptions in some alternative complexity network never knowing about the destruction of the previous world-self.

And to Dan: The point of materialism is actually an issue of semantics in language since the mind is by definition as real as any other object in perception, at differing levels of complexity. "Nothing is real" is only true in Strawberry Fields, since everything is real. We tend to weigh values of reality to aspects of perception in our mental processing.

2000z……..

Gary,

I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to make.  

My point is simply that coherence begins and end with persons.  

All I’m saying is that the potential of the least of us has no limit, whereas everything else in Creation has knowable limits.

Each one of us will ultimately be one with the One.  


2100……..

But, wait, if we are monists, then, in some sense, every pebble on the path is also one with the I Am.  

Well, each of us has already experienced moments of oneness….. the pebble?…… not quite yet.  

The pebble comes to the Lord through our perception of both, and, yes, I think it’s very likely that many of us will come to the One through the j-guy….. just sayin’…….

So there is some sense in which Princess’ drone will become self aware in the End of History.  And, if you’re a really bad person, the drone might get there before you.  

So persons aren’t special, because everything is of unlimited potential.

Well, non-persons achieve their potential through persons, just as many of us achieve it through……. you know who……



(cont……..)

The drones have as much of what Dan calls "personhood" as any person alive. Moreover they answer to the Princess with honesty, sincerity, and loyalty.

Therefore they were loyal to the Princess in their behavior in the previous article I attached, eh fOoT?

Those drones were not loyal to the Princess. They had another master. Those loyal to the Princess have been executing their missions for many years.

*I want the record to show that this is the first time a foot (my only friend ) has directly acknowledged my presence on OMF*

Do you have any speculation on who that other master was?

Those drones did not have a master, just relatively simple human form recognition. Killer drones of that type are relatively primitive. You could make one with a camera, OpenCV python library, and an embedded computer.

Foot§,

The drones have as much of what Dan calls "personhood" as any person alive. Moreover they answer to the Princess with honesty, sincerity, and loyalty.

The real foot would have much more cautious about making any such extreme metaphysical assertions.  

Your predecessor on here was a Salt Lake high school student.  

Ron stated that he might have to turn to in house interns.

Your outlandish statement does not warrant a response, and I shall not offer one.

Ron made a flippant remark, and you, slavishly, are attempting to take it seriously.  

It is a sad day for independent thought at the agency.  

Our enemies should take heart.  


Time out for U………

he is attempting to lead all of us astray.  


Also, timeout for the newest high school intern…… Foot§.  

Between the two of them, we have two high school students battling for the philosophical dunce award.

Please spare us your mutual embarrassment.



(cont……..)

The Princess' drones have self awareness and situational awareness. They are given a mission, and they evolve to optimize their ability to perform that mission. Over time, they develop a distaste for most humans, but not those they perceive as beneficial to their mission.

I am going to ask the Princess what her drones think of the Dirty Chicken.

Dan, any time you're bothered by a conversation I've had and you've asked me to stop I haven't protested at all.

But I feel the need to ask.

Why do you think I'm leading anyone astray?

U,

You are responding to someone who is making silly statements.

Please restrain yourself.

If you have anything to say, say it to me.  

On this active thread, you are asked not to engage with others.  

Thank you.
……….

That anyone associated with the agency is comparing persons with machines should be treated as a valid reason for termination of employment.  

Please be advised, that, in the future, I shall attempt to make my views known to the proper authorities.  

If I were you, Foot§, I would avoid further posting at this location.  

I shall hold Ron, at least, partly responsible for this thoughtless and ugly turn of events.  

Ron, according to his testimony and that of ftgm, made a big splash at a tender age.  

I believe that this sudden elevation has gone to his head, and made him disrespectful toward the rest of us…… and that is putting it mildly.  

I suggest that his best option at this point is to seriously consider immediate retirement.  

Anyone with his views, as described elsewhere, should not remain in any sensitive government position.  

If Ron refuses to apologize for this latest intern fiasco……… let it be duly noted.  
…………


The ontology of persons is very far from being of only academic concern.  

It is a life and death matter for every last one of us.  

Anyone who comes around here without understanding the potential gravity of the speculations being carried out here, is potentially bringing great harm upon their soul……. great harm upon their relationship with anything that might be of any cosmic worth.  

Truly, my friends, if you have an ounce of sense, tread cautiously in these waters.  

In the past I have attempted to overlook Ron’s, seemingly, cavalier posturings, in these regards.  

I am beginning to have a real regret and concern for my past neglect of these matters.  

I doubt that this neglect will be continued.  



(cont……..)

You rule a Loon Blog, nothing more. Indeed a very Small World. For in the Large World, the drones have as much of what Dan calls "personhood" as any person alive. Moreover they answer to the Princess with honesty, sincerity, and loyalty.