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Who's Disclosure is Disclosure?

Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:16 am by Cyrellys

The narrative war is in full swing. When there's a 100 different competing narratives, how is it possible to discern a disclosure?

Is it akin to which truth is Truth?




March 2024

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    Immaterialism 6

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    Immaterialism 6 - Page 19 Empty Immaterialism 6

    Post by dan Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:34 pm

    First topic message reminder :

    First topic message reminder :

    This is the continuation of the Immaterialism 5 thread.......

    The original topic reminder post https://openmindsforum.forumotion.com/t320-immaterialism
    should be substituted here......

    Please remember to confine you dialogue to matters that are pertinent to the topic of immaterialism/disclosure.  

    Thank you.  

    ............



    Last edited by dan on Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by SurfBum Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:00 pm

    Thank you CS,

    The role of royal scribe has to be passed on somehow or this is just the third rock from the sun.

    I can only do my best and leave the rest up to truth and love to bring us back home.

    I'm keeping an eye open for disciples of my own but we are just getting started here so for now we just take it a day at a time and keep placing one foot in front of the other.

    Things do seem to be heating up however as more portals come online.


    .....



    Yes Smelly...there is the minibrot and the mandlebrot though.

    We have to get all the minibrot back to the mandlebrot....that's where portals come in.
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    Post by dan Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:16 pm

    Yes, smelly is always half right.  He gets the easy half......

    Much of our thinking has been quite retarded.  

    We don’t, therefore, stop thinking.  We have to think better.  

    We have been teaching analytical thinking.   Holistic thinking is not nearly so easy.  

    It is much more intuitive.  

    Economics is a prime example..... everyone is treated as a blind consumer, maximizing their utility function.

    That is what is being taught at business schools..... maximizing profits, etc.....

    Where do you learn how to motivate folks?  

    What will be the source of our visions.... going forward?  

    Science and mathematics has no clue.  

    Science and religion are both half right.  

    But which half is which?  

    Following our intuitions regarding love is certainly a step in the right direction.  

    It is much easier said than done.  

    In many cases, nihilism is a better alternative than wrong headed analysis.  

    Yes,we are heading over a cliff...... better let Jesus take the wheel.  

    But wwjd?  The Bible is not much help, and is likely just to add to the confusion, especially if it is treated as a cook book.  

    What’s the matter with Buddhism?  In many cases it’s better than the Bible, but how do we mash them together?  

    smelly throws up his hands and doesn’t want anyone else to touch the wheel, either.  

    Ok, that’s his protocol, and it’s a lot better than being wrong headed.

    How do we stop being so wrong headed?  

    Do we pass more laws against stupidity?  That is all that any legislature, any committee can do.  

    So, we elect philosopher kings. Hmmm......

    Well, one thing..... we need to get both science and religion off our backs so that we can think straight.

    And that, again, is what smelly is doing.

    Celebrate the newfound void. It’s so peaceful, not having science and religion yammering at us.



    (cont....)
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    Post by 99 Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:00 pm

    Which way to go? Go by way of IMAGINATION.... virtual games fall in this concept too. The creation of games. (BTW, great ideas for the Space Council uniform in video below) 



    [size=30]Fantasy

    [/size]
    Every man has a place, in his heart there's a space,
    And the world can't erase his fantasies
    Take a ride in the sky, on our ship fantasy
    All your dreams will come true, right away
    And we will live together, until the twelfth of never
    Our voices will ring forever, as one
    Every thought is a dream, rushing by in a stream,
    Bringing life to our kingdom of doing
    Take a ride in the sky, on our ship fantasii
    All your dreams will come true, miles away
    Our voices will ring together until the twelfth of never,
    We all, will live forever, as one
    Come see victory, in the land called fantasy
    Loving life, a new decree,
    Bring your mind to everlasting liberty
    Our minds will explore together, old worlds, we conquer, forever
    We then, will expand love together, as one
    Come to see, victory in a land called fantasy,
    Loving life, for you and me, to behold, to your soul is ecstasy
    You will find, other kind, that has been in search for you,
    Many lives has brought you to
    Recognize it's your life, now in review
    And as you stay for the play, fantasy, has in store for you,
    A glowing light will see you through
    It's your day, shining day, all your dreams come true
    As you glide, in your stride with the wind, as you fly away
    Give a smile, from your lips, and say
    I am free, yes I'm free, now I'm on my way



    (ok, the costumes are a little over the top but so what?)
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    Post by dan Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:11 pm

    99,

    Well, the sentiment is good, but...... then what?

    What, for instance, are we going to teach in the schools?

    Or are we going to close the schools?

    Will we stop writing books, or reporting the news?

    smelly is saying, in effect, even a broken system is better trying to design a new one.

    This is the radically conservative point of view.... philosophically speaking.

    No philosophy is better than trying to devise a new one.



    (cont......)



    Last edited by dan on Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by Big Bunny Love Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:13 pm

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    Post by Big Bunny Love Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:14 pm

    Life in the flow is easy

    Thinking spontaneously

    And fractally
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    Post by Big Bunny Love Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:16 pm

    dan wrote:Yes, smelly is always half right.  He gets the easy half......

    Much of our thinking has been quite retarded.  

    We don’t, therefore, stop thinking.  We have to think better.  

    We have been teaching analytical thinking.   Holistic thinking is not nearly so easy.  

    It is much more intuitive.  

    Economics is a prime example..... everyone is treated as a blind consumer, maximizing their utility function.

    That is what is being taught at business schools..... maximizing profits, etc.....

    Where do you learn how to motivate folks?  

    What will be the source of our visions.... going forward?  

    Science and mathematics has no clue.  

    Science and religion are both half right.  

    But which half is which?  

    Following our intuitions regarding love is certainly a step in the right direction.  

    It is much easier said than done.  

    In many cases, nihilism is a better alternative than wrong headed analysis.  

    Yes,we are heading over a cliff...... better let Jesus take the wheel.  

    But wwjd?  The Bible is not much help, and is likely just to add to the confusion, especially if it is treated as a cook book.  

    What’s the matter with Buddhism?  In many cases it’s better than the Bible, but how do we mash them together?  

    smelly throws up his hands and doesn’t want anyone else to touch the wheel, either.  

    Ok, that’s his protocol, and it’s a lot better than being wrong headed.

    How do we stop being so wrong headed?  

    Do we pass more laws against stupidity?  That is all that any legislature, any committee can do.  

    So, we elect philosopher kings. Hmmm......

    Well, one thing..... we need to get both science and religion off our backs so that we can think straight.  

    And that, again, is what smelly is doing.  

    Celebrate the newfound void.  It’s so peaceful, not having science and religion yammering at us.  



    (cont....)

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    Post by Big Bunny Love Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:17 pm

    Aaron wrote:Thank you CS,

    The role of royal scribe has to be passed on somehow or this is just the third rock from the sun.

    I can only do my best and leave the rest up to truth and love to bring us back home.

    I'm keeping an eye open for disciples of my own but we are just getting started here so for now we just take it a day at a time and keep placing one foot in front of the other.

    Things do seem to be heating up however as more portals come online.


    .....



    Yes Smelly...there is the minibrot and the mandlebrot though.

    We have to get all the minibrot back to the mandlebrot....that's where portals come in.

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    Post by 99 Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:20 pm

    dan wrote:99,

    Well, the sentiment is good, but...... then what?  

    Just sit in hot tub for awhile....and perhaps several sessions of it ..... maybe with others to bounce some idea's between you and I'm sure you'll come up with something along these lines. 

    Isn't life, afterall... like a video game?

    This is an area, btw, that Elon Musk has been exploring.


    Last edited by 99 on Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by 99 Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:26 pm

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    Post by Big Bunny Love Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:33 pm

    Immaterialism 6 - Page 19 7d898e10
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    Post by dan Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:35 pm

    Yes, we will need some teamwork to keep smelly from peeing in our hot tub.  

    Yes, 99, here we are in the hot tub, bouncing ideas around.  

    Well that’s not quite accurate......

    I toss out ideas, and they almost never get bounced back.  

    I am hopeful that Aaron might be able to help keep smelly from being such an obstructionist.  

    I can’t do it alone, obviously.


    And, yes, again, I am suggesting that life is much more like a video game than what either science or religion are trying to tell us.  

    The question is, what sort of video game is it?  

    It is the best possible video game...... maybe.

    Ok, but so what?  Are there any rules?  

    How is the game scored?  Is it trying to teach us something?  


    If smelly is trying to tell us anything, it is that the mishmash of old ideas is better than trying to invent something new.

    This is correct, 99%, of the time. Probably, 99 would agree.

    The odds of one person improving on what human nature has already handed us is very slight.

    So the best policy is to obstruct all attempts at new thought.

    It’s hard to argue with those numbers, and smelly is here to make sure that no one tries.

    And most of you tacitly agree...... so I smile and carry on.



    (cont.......)


    Last edited by dan on Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:58 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post by Big Bunny Love Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:38 pm

    Cause they are stupid ideas space monkey.

    Bahahahahahahahaha

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    Post by 99 Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:50 pm

    If thousands were hooked up to a program that allows people to create their own simulated environments.... in such a way suggested by Musk.... according to him, out of a billion such "realities", one of them will ring closer to the truth than we ever imagined. He talks about this in that You Tube video I just posted.

    But what he doesn't go into is that we create our own realities. Or rather, he doesn't elaborate on that aspect of it.... could be that it's already an assumption that does not need to be extrapolated on when engaged in a brief conversation on this topic.  Interesting comments in the comment section of that video's You Tube page.
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    Post by Big Bunny Love Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:53 pm

    Give me me some of what this one is smokin ^^^^^^^^
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    Post by Cuan Scott Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:56 pm

    Synthesis Dan

    Perhaps we should teach people how to think rather than what to think. The media, science and religion all do the latter with success.

    I am trying to learn more about the process of Retroduction.

    I wouldn't claim to have any wisdom to offer aside of putting the kids in charge as little ones lead with their heart and not their head. Much better world.

    IMHO better that than putting a MBA Harvard Grad with expertise in maximising profits and killing GDH (Gross Domestic Happiness) or GUH (Gross Unity Happiness)

    I don't know if there is a concept called Gross Unity Happiness but if not there is now .. Smile
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    Post by dan Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:03 pm

    99,

    Well put.  

    That is exactly what I’m suggesting we have....... we are all, wittingly and unwittingly, providing feedback into the game design, as we are playing it.


    Scott,

    Yes, you are agreeing with smelly......

    Telling me to shut up, and stop trying think about it.  

    My question back to you is how do you teach people to think, if we have no idea what to think about.

    Garbage in...... garbage out..... comes to mind.

    Are you suggesting that we erase the history of ideas, and start again from scratch?

    We have to start thinking, somewhere. There is no automatic starting point, in the game of thought.

    I am searching for the starting point......

    Maybe you would like to help, or maybe you would like to sit on the sidelines, throwing tomatoes with smelly.

    It’s your choice, Scott...... smelly or smith........

    Don’t pretend that you can be a passive observer. At least smelly doesn’t pretend. I’ll give him that much.



    (cont.......)
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    Post by Cuan Scott Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:21 pm

    Dan,

    On the 'Game design' would the type of change in environment to which you refer be as per the drop in crime, war etc. around the world in the period following events of September 11?
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    Post by dan Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:47 pm

    Scott,

    Please rephrase your question.  

    Are you suggesting that we need more 9/11s?  

    Or that anything I have said would imply such a conclusion?

    That is something we had better clarify , in a hurry.
    .......

    Anyway, Scott, what I am attempting to convey is that there must be some common ground for any philosophical discussion.



    (cont.......)


    Last edited by dan on Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by Cuan Scott Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:00 pm

    Sorry Dan,

    No we definitely do not need any more 9/11s or any other events of suffering to arise.

    What I meant is if we are actively providing feedback in to what you suggest is akin to a video game, I recall seeing a presentation which suggested that in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 that there was a significant drop in crime and conflict of various types for a short period of time.

    Would you propose that if the statistics I saw were indeed correct that it was our 'feedback' that caused the drop and thus is shaping our collective experience?

    I can only speak for the awareness that I call 'me' but from my experience I believe the world as a whole is done with war and conflict.

    I think all would welcome peace and a better world for all life.

    The only winning move is 'not to play'. By not playing I mean the conflict game of any kind.

    If we collectively evolve beyond our current society structure which Carl Sagan suggested is organised for war, what is our collective capability?

    Perhaps if by quantum you mean all potential possibilities then we could create a true dream world for all Smile







    Last edited by Cuan Scott on Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by dan Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:21 pm

    Scott,

    I believe that you are right, especially if we believe that this is the best possible world.

    This simple belief, this starting point is the only rational starting point for any philosophical discussion.

    And is there any other basis for a thoughtful discussion than philosophy.

    .
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    Post by Cuan Scott Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:28 pm

    I agree Dan that this is the Best Possible World

    Perhaps with greater understanding we can collectively make it worthy of its name.
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    Post by dan Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:49 pm

    Yes, Scott,

    That is the whole idea here.  

    smelly goes a long way to proving this.  

    The only logical alternative is nihilism.  

    It was Nietzsche who first pointed this out.  

    This was well over a century ago.  

    Philosophers have been struggling with nihilism ever since.  

    Academically, there only exists analytical philosophy and historical philosophy.  

    In 1950 Quine demonstrated that pure analysis is impossible.  There is no logical beginning or end for analysis.  

    All thought has to start somewhere.  
    ........

    There is no alternative system of thought.  smelly demonstrates this, on a daily basis.  

    I understand that most people here don’t particularly like humans, and you are no exception.  

    They see humanity as a cancer upon the planet.  

    There is much evidence in support of this view, I will readily concede.  

    smelly enjoys nothing more than to curse this darkness.  

    I would light a candle, and smelly persists in his efforts to snuff it out.  

    Aaron has supported smelly more than you, Scott, but Aaron is my only hope, just now.  So I have to choose my battles.  

    Ufologist and religionists agree that we need to be rescued from or current plight...... they look to outside intervention.

    Most mystics, besides the handful of remaining New Agers, see the world on a downward spiral...... so they look inward for a personal salvation.  

    Again, this is smelly, Scott.  If you choose that path, please entice smelly to go away with you.  He takes some small pleasure in warming his hands by this candle, before snuffing it.  

    Unless you, or anyone, has a constructive alternative...... then we are stuck with some form of panentheism.....so let’s summon our courage and make the best of it.  Otherwise..... well, enjoy the Mandelbrot.  
    ......

    smelly has decided there is no light, or, if there is, it is not meant for him. He takes a sadistic pleasure in making sure that no one else has access to any warmth or light. So be it. He may do this mainly when he is under some influence. This is hardly an excuse, however.



    (cont........)
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    Post by Big Bunny Love Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:08 pm

    Muah?

    All have to choose their own life.

    How am I keeping anyone from anything?

    I’m not a mystic or a nihilist, I’m just here, no names.

    As always, you just spill a lot of words about nothing.

    Maybe you are right and wrong about everything, in fact you know you are Wink

    So what?

    It all cancels out.

    I know there is no dialogue worth having with you.

    And yet we persist.

    Your reactions are your own, as our mine.

    I could give nor take away anything from anyone.

    No difference between us.

    Can’t have one without the other.

    RETURN - 24

    There is nothing that is impure,
    nothing in need of elimination,
    no place to go, not a thing
    to obtain. Shed the duality
    that you are a seeker in search
    of some attainment.
    Just be as you are, without
    attachment to anything,
    anyone, any state, any ideal.

    —WWW
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    Post by Big Bunny Love Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:18 am

    Here is my thoughtless/thoughtful reply to the deeper question I hear here on OMF, YMMV based on your hold on time and history.

    Heidegger rejected humanism and metaphysics, while we do have relations to beings, we also have a relation to Being.

    His was a search for the Transground of being beneath ordinary human consciousness.

    Despite Dan’s accusations that I’m just here to laugh at him, I have been on an earnest quest to touch primordial consciousness.

    I have raised deep issues with him he scoffs off unable to go deeper with me.

    I did not want to spoil the fun, so I just used his negative energy against him over and over.

    It didn’t have to be negative, but this is what Dan has to project.

    Who knows why, mommy and daddy issues I suspect.

    Forgetting his sham anger and flipping the script on him...

    What is the ground of being?

    Can’t hide behind that ole time religion and history.

    Beyond time and space...

    Heidegger saw science as just another religion, most here might agree.

    Ironically religion is about connecting to a dreamed of source.

    Why even consider the nature of being?

    Humanism only cares how beings relate.

    Science says reality is only what is measurable.

    He was in search or a more inclusive ontology of being.

    I have not abandoned Being as the nihilists have.

    Not at all.

    I have delved into Being and Non-Being.

    “In fact humanism, Heidegger insists, is a measure of man's homelessness (Heimatlosigkeit), for in his forgetfulness of Being, he forgets his original home. This is precisely the brunt of Heidegger's criticism of Sartre, for despite Sartre's reversal -- his emphasis on existence over essence -- Sartre is still a metaphysician, “juggling the terms existence and essence, either in Sartre's sense of existence being prior, or in Plato's sense of essence being prior, is metaphysical thinking, according to Heidegger, and he will have none of it.

    ...

    As Heidegger puts it, "the reversal of a metaphysical principle remains a metaphysical principle." Moreover, Sartre is more nihilistic than the metaphysicians before him, according to Heidegger, because in his concern with beings, he has abandoned Being entirely.”

    I can hold my own and then some with Dan and friends.

    As you can see, he is confused in several of his dismissive characterizations of my non-position.

    He simply is a dualist and this is how they fight with nondualists.

    They attack people personally and call them names.

    They have no choice but their thinking, which is easily frustrated and befooled.

    Well, Dan is pretty smart, maybe smarter than you and me combined, so watch out.

    I am not smarter than you.

    I am fairly ordinary.

    “Zen is certainly in agreement with Heidegger that metaphysics must be transcended; in fact, in congruence with Heidegger's "forgottenness of Being" (Seinsvergessenheit), Suzuki writes: "The power of dichotomizing has made us forgetful of the source in which it preserves its creative potentialities.

    ...

    Also like Heidegger, Zen confirms transconceptual thinking as an accompaniment to transmetaphysical thinking. A radical transformation of consciousness is essential if one is to transcend the realm of beings and "break through" the dichotomous matrix of ordinary thinking with its inherent subject-object duality. According to Suzuki, "to turn away from all this [the world of relativity], what may psychologically be called a 'revulsion' or 'revolution' must take place in our inmost consciousness." That this transformation of consciousness is a transcendence of metaphysics is explicit in Suzuki's statement, "knowable knowledge is relative, while unknown knowledge is absolute and transcendental and is not communicable through the medium of ideas." The major difference between Heidegger and Zen, however, is that Zen's transformation of consciousness (as we shall see) is much more radical than Heidegger's -- especially with regard to subject-object duality -- and therefore its transcendence of metaphysics also more radical.”

    Yes, an apparently radical change seems to occur grappling with these non concepts. Only few seem to see it still.

    Awareness then could be thought of, but could not capture the experience of, standing in the light of Being within your self.

    Being itself is never separate from beings.

    “Whereas Heidegger postulates an integral relation between Dasein/human existence, and man, between Dasein and Being, Zen would say that, though phenomenally a difference can be perceived, ultimately no difference exists. According to Shinichi Hisamatsu, "Buddha as the Mind of which I am speaking, however, is not such a subject which is 'other,' but is a subject in which something 'other,' is completely Oneself."

    Whereas Heidegger proposes an integralness between man and Dasein, between Dasein and Being, and between man and Being, Zen would say that man is Mind, Mind is Being, and man is Being.

    As Suzuki puts it, "When you ask what Zen is, I say that Zen is you and you are Zen." And this is why Hisamatsu refers to Zen as "Mind," "Self," or the "True Man."

    ...

    Though Dasein, might be thought of as a mode of consciousness, Dasein cannot be simply equated with consciousness. It is more akin to Being (the "there" of Being) than consciousness, and therefore is more ontological than conceptual. As William Richardson explains, Dasein "is a self to be sure, but not a conscious subject. It is a pre-subjective, onto-conscious self.

    ...

    It is important to note that, though Zen affirms that man is Being, Zen does not affirm (as it is usually thought) that man is One with Being. The important distinction between Heidegger and Zen is not that Heidegger postulates an integralness between man and Being while Zen postulates a Oneness of man and Being, but that Zen transcends duality and nonduality altogether. Oneness itself is a dualistic concept, that is, in relation to Twoness. That Zen is not a Oneness is a major point of Suzuki's: I am not certain whether Zen can be identified with mysticism. Mysticism as it is understood in the West starts generally with an antithesis and ends with its unification or identification. If there is an antithesis, Zen accepts it as it is, and makes no attempt to unify it. Instead of starting with dualism or pluralism, Zen wants us to have a Zen-experience, and with this experience it purveys a world of suchness.

    Zen starts neither with the duality of ontic and ontological nor with the oneness of ontic and ontological, but with a (paradoxical) distinguishment and non-distinguishment at the same time. As Suzuki puts it, ‘Not two! Not even One.’

    If Being -- just Being -- was the apex of Heidegger's quest, Heidegger's relation to Zen would be tenuous, not worthy of comparison. What makes Heidegger's relation to Zen fruitful -- and most deserving of comparison -- is his concern with Nonbeing, for it is precisely through Nonbeing that Dasein can come to terms with Being: "The Being of beings, however, is comprehensible only -- and in this lies the deepest finitude of transcendence -- when Dasein, by its very nature, plunges into Non-being."

    Nonbeing, in Heidegger, is the gateway to Being.

    You can never be free as long as being for you is tied to temporo-historical foundations.

    Zen transcends all notion of being and nonbeing.

    Zen would say that Heidegger's difficulty (and his restlessness) is that he is still thinking (metaphysically).

    In a dialogue between Bodhidharma and the Second Ch'an Patriarch, Bodhidharma supposedly said.

    "Bring me your mind so that I can quiet it" -- to which the Second Patriarch replied,

    "I cannot find my mind."

    To this, Bodhidharma responded, "I have now quieted your mind."

    I only recount my path and mechanism to my acceptance, which is only my own.

    It was nothing less than a complete immediate awareness beyond all concepts of being and non-being.

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