Open Minds Forum



Join the forum, it's quick and easy

Open Minds Forum

Open Minds Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

UFOs, Extraterrestrial Contact, Conspiracy, Exopolitics, Geopolitics, Paranormal, Crypto-zoology, Ancient History, Cutting-Edge Science & Special Guests.

Latest topics

» What Music Are You Listening To ?
Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Icon_minitimeToday at 12:33 am by Mr. Janus

» Why are we here?
Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Icon_minitimeYesterday at 3:23 pm by RealPan

» Livin Your Best Life
Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Icon_minitimeYesterday at 3:18 pm by dan

» WRATH OF THE GODS/TITANS
Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Icon_minitimeTue Mar 26, 2024 12:04 am by Mr. Janus

» Scientists plan DNA hunt for Loch Ness monster next month
Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Icon_minitimeSat Mar 23, 2024 1:32 am by Mr. Janus

» Uanon's Majikal Misery Tour "it's all smiles on the magic school bus"
Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Icon_minitimeThu Mar 21, 2024 2:10 am by Mr. Janus

» OMF STATE OF THE UNION
Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Icon_minitimeSat Mar 16, 2024 12:01 am by Mr. Janus

» Earth Intelligence
Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Icon_minitimeMon Mar 04, 2024 1:04 am by Mr. Janus

» The scariest character in all fiction
Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Icon_minitimeSat Feb 03, 2024 12:54 am by Mr. Janus

Who's Disclosure is Disclosure?

Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:16 am by Cyrellys

The narrative war is in full swing. When there's a 100 different competing narratives, how is it possible to discern a disclosure?

Is it akin to which truth is Truth?




March 2024

SunMonTueWedThuFriSat
     12
3456789
10111213141516
17181920212223
24252627282930

Calendar Calendar


+11
dylan OMF-Original
ScaRZ
IPFreely
Cyrellys
Mur
99
Paul Chefurka
Jake Reason
Bard
Admin
dan
15 posters

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    dan
    dan
    Special Guest
    Special Guest


    Posts : 9144
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Baltimore

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by dan Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:35 pm

    First topic message reminder :

    Testing.......

    Yes, it is working.

    Congratulations to Cyrellys & Co.!

    I will be continuing the BPWH blog from Compass Morainn, which was a continuation from the original OMF site on ProBoards, which is in the process of being re-archived from that site.



    (cont.)



    Last edited by dan on Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Jake Reason
    Jake Reason
    Admin
    Admin


    Posts : 1008
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Canada

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by Jake Reason Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:32 pm

    dan wrote:
    2pm------------

    OMG, I almost forgot that Bill also alerted me to Chris Langan's 2-hour stint on Coast-to-Coast, Friday night. Unfortunately, you have to open an account with C2C, in order to access their archives.
    It's on youtube

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojFeKhJn_JQ&list=PL3wrIQXErzIOCm80FIZrDtPule-Qv4iDm&index=3

    dan
    dan
    Special Guest
    Special Guest


    Posts : 9144
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Baltimore

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by dan Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:49 pm

    Jake,

    Happy New to you, and to the merry folks of OMF...........

    Thanks for mentioning Swedenborg. It would be difficult not to be aware of one of the best known Christian mystics, and I've read a fair amount about him, but not by him. I just finished a careful reading of his wiki article. He was certainly an inspiring person, and had a very positive effect of Christianity, TBMK.

    And thank you for the link to Chris Langan's interview.


    I have spent most of the day working on responses to a Gary G, who recently joined Steve Salmony's environmental list.......
    Gary..... (and Steve K & Fred,) 

    I have been a student of metaphysics for quite a few years, myself.  Metaphysics is a veritable jungle..... road maps are few, but there may be useful guidelines.... 

    It may be useful to have a set of priorities, at least in terms of one's questions....... 

    1.)  Paul Gaugin.... who are we, from whence did we come, and whither do we go?  

    2.)  The same questions could be asked of your holons, for instance. 

    Steve K speaks almost reverently of Emergence.......... an important, but vague and even mystical concept.  There is, of course, both strong and weak emergence, for instance.  

    3.)  What might be the limits of emergence and/or evolution?  What does the anthropic principle, either weak or strong, suggest about such limits?  

    4.)  The very possibility of a strong emergence suggests that some form of vitalism and/or teleology cannot be ruled out of court.  

    5.)  Just as mathematics is, quite evidently, ubiquitous within nature, can we rule out of court some form of panpsychism?  Is not quantum physics, at least, suggestive of this possibility?  

    I imagine that Steve K, and probably Fred, are already reaching for the delete button.  What can a metaphysicist say to such folks?  

    Steve has already pronounced his assessment of human destiny..... extinction, pure and simple.    He may be right, I have no proof to the contrary, nor, for that matter does Steve, have any proof.  

    However, the mere possibility of holism or panpsychism suggests that sapience could be an essential feature of any possible world, as you have already suggested, Gary.  

    Here's a question that is useful to put to folks like Steve and Fred, who seem to suppose that science is the only path to truth........ why is there something, rather than nothing?  Materialists point to the Big Bang, naturally.  But it has been made very plausible that our particular Big Bang, if in fact it truly occurred as specified, was an extremely rare version of all such possible events.  Should we not then suppose that, given any existence at all, we should assume that virtually everything that can exist will exist?  (e.g. see 'Mad' Max Tegmark, MIT) 

    What kind of non-explanation is this, pray tell?  In order to explain one existence, we must assume every existence....... ramified to every order of infinity!  What happened to Occam's razor?  

    And what does this have to do with the price of condoms in Kansas?  I would say that it has everything to do with identity politics, which is a crucial component of our biological decisions.  No?  

    I would also ask Steve K and Fred, if they have ever fallen in love?  How many have given up their lives for love?  Steve implied that he might do so for his family.  Suppose that the concept of self and love could be extended to the entire human race.  Does science provide a basis for this?  Does the idea of a cosmic holonomic spirit?  

    How certain are you, Steve and Fred, that no such immaterial thing can exist?  


    Dan 

    .
    Jake Reason
    Jake Reason
    Admin
    Admin


    Posts : 1008
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Canada

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by Jake Reason Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:36 am

    I listened to Chris Langan's interview. Just an hour, half of which was Q&A from call-ins. His views and deductions are very similar to mine, in all things. The host didn't query too much about his Cognitive Theory of the Universe, which I had hoped to hear more. He's concerned with the Population/Resources problem, which he felt could only be resolved through the development of a worldwide responsibility consensus, which may not be possible without a World Governing body of some form. I will look for other longer interviews he has participated in.

    Swedenborg - My my, what a unique perspective on all things spiritual! I'm now reading two of his books, the one mentioned above and "Heaven and Its Wonders and Hell", which is somewhat like Dante's Divine Comedy, without the prose, in plainer speech. While authoritatively claiming he learned everything first hand from Angels and Spirits he directly met in Heaven and Hell. And unlike Dante, Swedenborg explains how what he learned relates to Biblical Scriptures. Thus introducing a New and more expansive interpretation of Heaven and Hell. Very thought provoking. I'll have to read much more before passing any judgments on his work. (coincidental pun)

    Roger Penrose - I've book marked his youtube lecture on the mind, to watch at another time. Thanks for this, Dan and Jack.

    2013 - we've arrived! whatever that means.

    I see the Fiscal Cliff has been reduced to a molehill. And surprise! North Korea's leader, Kim Jong-un, ushers in the New Year calling for Peace between the North and South. His Father and Grandfather are rolling-over in their graves.

    Edit to add: and from the Far Side we have Benjamin Fulford posting that his Pentagon and Intel sources have advised him that the plans for WW3 have been cancelled. Isn't that nice.

    It's a new world after-all

    Cheers everyone

    dan
    dan
    Special Guest
    Special Guest


    Posts : 9144
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Baltimore

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by dan Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:56 pm

    Jake,

    Thank you.........

    I continue to be preoccupied with the Salmony email list.........
    From: Dan Smith
    Date: January 1, 2013 2:50:48 PM EST
    To: Xxxx 

    Subject: Smarter than yeast........?

    Fred, Steve K and Paul, 

    Thank you for your thoughtful responses.  

    But here is this other deal......... 

    We live in interesting and risky times.  We live dangerously, almost by design.  Science has virtually nothing to say about what human passions may be unleashed in the coming years of unprecedented crisis, which eventuality we all take as highly credible. 

    There is an urgency about our 'business'.  The infinite deliberations and analyses of science have no respect for human urgency.  

    Some of us must take the risk of thinking beyond the narrow confines of both the Scientific and Religious Establishments.  I have been waiting patiently to be allowed to do this....... especially here, on Steve Salmony's email list, at the Baltimore Green Forum and at the Grace Fellowship Church.  

    Saving human civilization, at this late hour, would constitute a miracle of the first water.  Yes?  No?  

    What would be the most likely nature of this miracle, would be the next logical question.  I submit that there is one possibility that stands out from the rest.......... This possibility entails the collapse of the paradigm of scientific materialism, which paradigm declares that life is an absurdity in a meaningless universe, and that you and I are meat-machines, programmed by our selfish genes.  

    Before it is much too late, it is urgent that some of us explore the most likely alternative, and there is only one alternative that speaks to a cosmic coherence, and here it is......... 

    The world is much more like a great thought than a great machine.  But who's thought might it be?  My very modest proposal is that this thought/spirit emanates from the very depths of the human psyche, as in.... the kingdom that is within.  This is the only cosmology that can, very logically, make any sense to us.  Every other cosmology ends in a senseless incoherence.  I stand to be corrected.  

    Most of you, if of any definable belief, are existentialist pantheist/agnostics, or let us suppose, for the sake of argument.  It is precisely, and historically, the pantheists who have adamantly pointed to the world as being a construct of our own maya, qv, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(illusion) .  

    Someone tell my that this is implausible.  Is it less plausible, on its face, than the notion that the world exploded from a singularity, much smaller than a proton?  I ask you this, in all sincerity.  

    Must we then surrender to pantheistic fatalism and escapism?  No, not if we can see a light at the end of this existential tunnel. 

    Look, my friends, if the scientists hold the key to our survival, then listen to them, and not to me, but, first, show me the established scientist who has the temerity to speak forcefully to our impending crisis.  And let them speak now, or else......... 

    Or else, in the few short remaining years that may be conducive to any reasoned deliberation, there is just enough time to entertain a new coherence, as Gary suggested, a couple of days ago...... 

    Dan 
    ------------------

    From Gary........... 

         I feel my world crumbling all around me, and not just my world but the larger word that contains us all. Crumbling isn’t the right word, though it is expressive of how it feels to have the earth fall away from beneath your feet. Dismantling comes closer to the actual fact, as we go about our systematic plunder. Crumbling implies inner-directed natural processes (allopoiesis), but the ruin of the world is strictly the allopoietic process of one species—or rather, one culture within that species: our culture, the culture of civilization. I am grieved and angered by what I see happening, and feel utterly powerless to do anything about it. It is a juggernaut driven by technology and our economic system, and behind these a culture that encourages and rewards the destruction. The culture, as I see it, is built on a foundation of theft, deception, and violence, and--to the extent that we are captives and carriers of this culture--those qualities inform everything we do. So, not content with the dominant paradigm, I have made it my business to look into alternatives, and I have been doing that for quite some time now.
    ------------------ 

    Steven S quoting Emily Spence.........

    There is a river flowing now very fast. It is so great and swift that there are those who will be afraid. They will try to hold on to the shore. They will feel they are being torn apart, and they will suffer greatly.
     
    Know the river has its destination. The elders say we must let go of the shore, push off into the middle of the river, keep our eyes open, and our heads above the water. See who is in there with you and celebrate.
     
    At this time in history, we are to take nothing personally. Least of all, ourselves. For the moment that we do, our spiritual growth and journey comes to a halt.
    ------------------ 

    From Fred..........

    Which ultimately begs the question, "Are humans smarter than yeast?"
    ---------------- 

    From Paul...........

    This prompts a couple of thoughts,

    Re: strong emergence.  It seems to me that, given the disparate natures of physical reality and consciousness, one must be emergent from the other.  Which is the system and which the emergent quality is hard to tell for sure, though.  If reality emerged from consciousness, it would nicely undercut the anthropic principle, though.

    Re: skepticism.  I've recently been taken by the ancient Greek school of Pyrrhonian skepticism, in which nothing is accepted.   Pyrrhonian skeptics withhold any assent with regard to non-evident propositions and remain in a state of perpetual inquiry.  I like that, because it allows me to include so much more in my field of inquiry.  I don't need to worry if things are "true" or not, and that allows me to conentrate on what the idea reveals to me about my world and myself.  It also saves a lot of arguing if I go in thinking that nobody's ideas need to be falsified - least of all by me.

    That last point makes the ideas of a "cosmic holonomic spirit" or panpsychism, or even chemtrails and alien abductions interesting and useful.

    Happy New Year,

    Paul 
    --------------- 

    From an article referenced by Steve K..... http://openparachute.wordpress.com/2012/12/27/historians-and-sociologists-lecture-scientists-about-science/ ........ 

    By ignoring, even denying, the cognitive advantage its relationship with reality gives science, Stilgoe and Higggit reveal their own agenda – to present science as just “another way of knowing,” and inevitably contaminated by political influence, prejudice and bias.

    I am disturbed these particular historians and sociologists of science are unaware of this special cognitive relationship between reality and science. Surely this is key to understanding modern science, its history and its role in society? That aspect of science is just a fact. It’s not a political grab for power.  

    ------------------

    Steve K responding to an earlier post......... 

    me....  How many have given up their lives for love?

    Steve.... You tell me; you have the pipeline to the truth. ;-)

    me......  Steve implied that he might do so for his family.

    Steve.... Evolutionary biology explains altruism well, as does _The Selfish Gene_

     me..... Suppose that the concept of self and love could be extended to the entire human race.  

    Steve...... History says otherwise. In overshoot the tribal wagons are circled ever more tightly. And I do charitable wagers on future outcomes . See one here:  http://longbets.org/126

    ------------  

    And now I need to prepare for my meeting with Khori S.......



    (cont.)

    dan
    dan
    Special Guest
    Special Guest


    Posts : 9144
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Baltimore

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by dan Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:10 am

    Still, no one wants to gamble on the small world PoV. This is understandable up to a point, but I think we may have gone beyond the point of reason wrt everyone jumping on the Big Bang bandwagon. It is a very slippery slope into existential absurdity.

    But who has the stomach to go up against the entire scientific establishment? Neither the theists nor the pantheists....... they all want to grab those coattails.

    No one will gamble, unless they absolutely have to, unless they can see that they are actually gambling on survival.

    Can I, should I, try to soft-peddle this conceptual obstacle, in my meeting with Khori? I don't think I have that luxury.

    It seems that God has just been too successful at covering her tracks, and, so, in hiding from us. We won't find her, until and unless she wants to be found out. Am I supposed to be able to coax her out of hiding? That is surely a stretch.



    (cont.)

    GSB/SSR
    GSB/SSR
    Special Guest
    Special Guest


    Posts : 658
    Join date : 2012-12-29
    Location : Planet Earth

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Consciousness Encounters Quantum Physics: A Scientific Argument for Panpsychism

    Post by GSB/SSR Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:45 am

    Dan, you might wish to have a look at http://www.amazon.com/Consciousness-Encounters-Quantum-Physics-ebook/dp/B007OOS3ZE/ref=pd_ys_sf_s_154606011_b1_3_p by our friend Shan Gao. Kit met with Shan in China a few years back. There were discussions of U.S. funding of joint quantum consciousness experiments.


    This book will propose a promising solution to the hard problem of consciousness by investigating the possible quantum effects of consciousness. Admittedly, it has been a hot topic of debate whether there is a subtle connection between quantum physics and consciousness. Different from the existing speculations, the analysis of the book is based on the well-accepted assumption that quantum processes such as quantum measurements are objective physical processes, independent of the consciousness of observers. To our great surprise, however, this banal assumption may have profound implications for the nature of consciousness. For it implies that a conscious being can distinguish definite perceptions and their quantum superpositions under certain conditions, while a measuring system without consciousness cannot distinguish such quantum states. The existence of this distinct physical effect of consciousness further implies that consciousness is not emergent but a fundamental feature of the universe. This provides a convincing scientific argument for panpsychism.
    Jake Reason
    Jake Reason
    Admin
    Admin


    Posts : 1008
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Canada

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by Jake Reason Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:38 am

    dan wrote:Still, no one wants to gamble on the small world PoV. This is understandable up to a point, but I think we may have gone beyond the point of reason wrt everyone jumping on the Big Bang bandwagon. It is a very slippery slope into existential absurdity.

    But who has the stomach to go up against the entire scientific establishment? Neither the theists nor the pantheists....... they all want to grab those coattails.

    No one will gamble, unless they absolutely have to, unless they can see that they are actually gambling on survival.

    Can I, should I, try to soft-peddle this conceptual obstacle, in my meeting with Khori? I don't think I have that luxury.

    It seems that God has just been too successful at covering her tracks, and, so, in hiding from us. We won't find her, until and unless she wants to be found out. Am I supposed to be able to coax her out of hiding? That is surely a stretch.
    Yes Dan, no one wants to believe the world is flat. Not even God.

    It's a tough hoe for you to go against all observable phenomena. Especially when you don't even offer an argument for your hypothesis. But simply insist that "it is so" and expect others to believe you without any reasoning to support it.

    You are like the man who says Big Foot is real, and then criticize and belittle everyone treating them as stupid because they ask for supportive evidence. And when anyone asks why you believe such, you say, "Sophia". Then you quickly change the subject to avoid any further discussion that addresses the basis of your hypothesis.

    You make fun of everyone who sees that all evidence clearly supports a billion year old Earth and a vast Universe occupied by billions of Galaxies. Yet you never offer any reasoning, any argument, nor any supportive evidence for why you insist the Earth is very young and the Universe is an illusion that isn't real.

    Then every few months you make a post like this one above. Poor me, you think to yourself, wondering why no one else is smart enough to see what you see.


    -----------------------------

    I have a recommendation for you, Dan. Something that will help you in ways you will only realize once you do it -

    Take a seven week vacation. Not 6, not 4, but Seven weeks. Put your BPWH on the shelf and leave it there for the full seven weeks.

    Go and do whatever you hearts content, providing it has nothing to do with your BPWH. And No blogging, none.

    Live it up! Relax, explore, travel places you haven't been before, walk and talk with God. Worry not about anything.


    dan
    dan
    Special Guest
    Special Guest


    Posts : 9144
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Baltimore

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by dan Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:35 am

    Gary,

    Thanks for that link to Shan Gao's new book. I'll definitely need to take a look at it.


    Jake,

    I thank you for your concern as to my mental health. Yes, we all need breaks, once in awhile. I have no doubt that the scientific community is sincerely pursuing the truth, as best they can. And we can hardly expect them to have any patience with a God, or with the visitors, who shows no respect for their protocols and for their earnestness. Why didn't God at least take the trouble to leave them a calling card? God, quite evidently, ignores them, so they have little choice, but to return the favor.

    In the meantime, I did get stood up on my lunch date with Khori. It must be all for the best, although sometimes it can be difficult.


    Back to Jake's commiseration......... I strongly suspect that there are many closet immaterialists out there, but they are content to just nibble around the edges of materialism, and their piecemeal approach may well win out, in the end. But that just isn't my style. The truth is whole, IMHO, and it will not give way to baby steps. This is just the nature of paradigms and gestalts....... they are incommensurable, the old and the new. There is seldom a logical bridge from the one to the other.

    Jake further claims that I don't attempt to argue the case of immaterialism. That is a strange thing for him to say, since I'm not aware that I have ever done anything else, but present arguments. It would seem, rather, that he may be turning a blind eye. There is little that I can do, in that case.



    (cont.)

    Jake Reason
    Jake Reason
    Admin
    Admin


    Posts : 1008
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Canada

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by Jake Reason Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:08 pm

    dan wrote:
    Jake further claims that I don't attempt to argue the case of immaterialism. That is a strange thing for him to say, since I'm not aware that I have ever done anything else, but present arguments. It would seem, rather, that he may be turning a blind eye. There is little that I can do, in that case.
    No no Dan, I think your efforts and arguments against scientific materialism and support of immateralism, are Brilliant!

    It is your summary deductive conclusions that you don't argue...such as:
    the earth is only thousands of years old, the Universe is an illusion, galaxies don't really exist, this is the best possible world ever made, the eschaton will occur in approx 200 years, etc, etc.

    You simply state these things to be so, while never offering supportive reasoning that might form a basis for these conclusions of yours.

    ---------

    Seven weeks, Dan.

    Life is short. Give it a go. Permit yourself. Call it a sabbatical if you will. No BPWH, nor blogging for 7 weeks. Do it for Louise, or do it for your wife, or your son, or simply do it for yourself, do it for whatever reason you need to justify and motivate you. Let it go, Dan. Seven weeks isn't very long. Yet it may well make a world of difference to the rest of your life.

    Best wishes,
    Rick P.D.
    /Jake



    dan
    dan
    Special Guest
    Special Guest


    Posts : 9144
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Baltimore

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by dan Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:26 am

    Jake,

    I do appreciate your medical/mental concern for my state of health and longevity. I do have your excellent advice under consideration.

    In the meantime, about the BPWH and its various parameters........

    All of the time estimates, both past and future, have only ever been billed as hypothetical, i.e. speculative, in keeping with the hypothesis that this is the best possible world, and that is exactly why it has always been labeled as the BPWH, where the H stands for hypothesis and hypothetical. Yes?!

    200 years until the Eschaton........?

    As I have stated, on many occasions, this estimate is based solely upon what I am guessing will be a developing human consensus as to what will be the optimal duration of our Millennial kingdom come. If you wish a longer time frame, don't hesitate to make your wishes known.



    Now I can start working more systematically on my BGF presentation, set for the end of February, which I would like to coordinate with GraceFC. Sam does not like my title of just Grace and Green....... it would be too 'confusing' for the poor Greens.


    8pm----------------

    Convo w/ CK re LF.

    .
    Jake Reason
    Jake Reason
    Admin
    Admin


    Posts : 1008
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Canada

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by Jake Reason Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:35 pm

    You're welcome. Take your time mulling it over. I do hope you try it. Somehow I am persuaded your 'retrospective self' would be glad you did it.

    LF? hmmm. You didn't tell me who orchestrated the meeting. I could have arranged our invitation, if you wanted it. We don't know each other, but there is a connection that would have compelled him to accept my call followed by extending an invite. I can only deduce the H.S. felt it not the appropriate time. God always knows best.

    It is utterly amazing at times how all things work together for purpose, to those who are called.

    I have a busy year ahead. Hopefully, something wonderful.
    Not for me, but for the greater cause.


    dan
    dan
    Special Guest
    Special Guest


    Posts : 9144
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Baltimore

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by dan Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:29 am

    Jake,

    It may be significant Chris and my 'patrons' have been conversing. So I am hoping that he and I can meet in Philly, next weekend. That could be a very significant breakthrough for the BPWH. So, you see, Jake, why I doubt that I can afford to take an extended vacation, any time soon. Both of us may be having busy years ahead.

    I am still hopeful that you will be able to start thinking from a God's eye view than from a human's eye view. Then you may start to so that Quality is more important than Quantity, given that, yes, it is optimal to have 10^10 humans, at our peak population, that also coincides with peak Oil. Now, we can start focussing on the Denouement.

    It was Khori Smith of GFC, in his talk on the greatness of God compared to the puniness of us humans, that afforded me a deeper insight into your own thinking, on that subject. I see how both of you have made a significant underestimation of our special relationship with God. You both are afraid of manning-up to our essential role in the cosmic scheme, as the prime protagonists in our own salvation.

    I understand, Jake, I truly do. All that remains is for you and Khori to forgive yourselves for not being the very first one's to rise to the historical occasion, this historical watershed. You will see it instantly, at the appointed hour.


    Here is a draft of the invitation to my proposed BGF talk, next month.......
    From: "Sam B Hopkins" 
    Date: January 4, 2013 1:21:02 AM EST
    To: "Dan T. Smith" 
    Cc: to three others.......  

    Subject: Please critique my first draft -- to get an audience for Dan on Feb. 24

    Dan, Gus, Brendan, and Jim,

    Dan gave us a seminar in September.  So, we all have been briefed by him on what I call below his "personal belief system."   He has now been give the opportunity to devote the entire Baltimore Green Forum meeting in February to whatever he wants to do.    We know he wants to brief the audience, as he did us in September.

    But I have been working with Dan to take make the event more "participatory," welcoming attendees to at least briefly describe their own belief systems.  Dan and I spent several hours this afternoon discussion his belief system and what parts of it we should probably leave out of the February event.

    Next is the problem of how to describe the event not just accurately but in a way that will attract a decent sized audience.  (This may be only 5-10 people without personal solicitations of our friends.)   Dan asked me to do the first draft.  

    So here it is   This will be the center part of the e-mail flyer to promote  Feb. 24, 2013, Baltimore Green Forum.  It will be a 1.5 hour event with an optional additional hour for those who wish to continue the discussion.    The rest of the flyer is the same every month.

    Again, I have used "workshop" and "sharing" to maximize the number of people who will show up and not leave before it is over -- AND also come back for more.

    But you may not agree.  I welcome your comments and suggestions.

    How Do We Greens Stay Positive and Sane?


    A Workshop on Personal Belief Systems that Help Us Deal with Our Predicament

    -- Especially the New Knowledge about Climate Change and Energy

     
    Workshop Leader: Dan T. Smith


    Dan Smith has been and environmentalist since the early ‘60’s.  Early on he saw the need for a coherent world, even cosmic, view to help him deal with how things have been getting worse for us GREENS.  He will lead a workshop for all who wish to share their own search for personal belief systems that help us environmentalists deal with what has happened to our world, especially the most recent  knowledge about Climate Change and Energy. 


    Dan has for decades studied physics, philosophy and religions to develop his personal belief system.  And his system has been constantly evolving. 


    At this workshop he welcomes the sharing of all types of personal belief systems.  These include atheist, agnostic, deist, theist, Buddhist  and pantheist.  Yours may be as simple as a stoic acceptance of environmental decline and collapse, as magical as a belief that Angels will protect us in the end, or as traditional and widely known as the "end times" theologies of various established religions. 


    Dan will outline his belief system as an example to encourage others to share theirs.


    NOTE:  You do not have to share.  You are welcome to come only to listen or ask questions.   Also, a moderator/facilitator will restrain "cross talk." This is a common facilitation technique to keep the workshop relaxed, friendly, and with maximum participation. 


    Sam
    This is a good start. I like the idea of sharing beliefs, although, hey, who can beat the Best Possible World?!



    (cont.)

    Jake Reason
    Jake Reason
    Admin
    Admin


    Posts : 1008
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Canada

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by Jake Reason Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:43 am

    dan wrote:Jake,

    It may be significant Chris and my 'patrons' have been conversing. So I am hoping that he and I can meet in Philly, next weekend. That could be a very significant breakthrough for the BPWH. So, you see, Jake, why I doubt that I can afford to take an extended vacation, any time soon. Both of us may be having busy years ahead.
    Yes Dan, attend your meetings and complete what is before you. There is no rush. I realize it will be tough for you to permit yourself a pause. A time will come when you'll be able to set aside a seven week rest from blogging.

    I am still hopeful that you will be able to start thinking from a God's eye view than from a human's eye view. Then you may start to so that Quality is more important than Quantity, given that, yes, it is optimal to have 10^10 humans, at our peak population, that also coincides with peak Oil. Now, we can start focussing on the Denouement.

    It was Khori Smith of GFC, in his talk on the greatness of God compared to the puniness of us humans, that afforded me a deeper insight into your own thinking, on that subject. I see how both of you have made a significant underestimation of our special relationship with God. You both are afraid of manning-up to our essential role in the cosmic scheme, as the prime protagonists in our own salvation.

    I understand, Jake, I truly do. All that remains is for you and Khori to forgive yourselves for not being the very first one's to rise to the historical occasion, this historical watershed. You will see it instantly, at the appointed hour.
    I don't understand why you would think and say these things. I haven't heard Khori speak so I don't know his perspective. My response on page 46 to Khori's 'pale blue dot' was, quote:

    "sometimes in our attempt to Glorify the Magnitude of God, we inadvertently belittle just who we think we are. Where ever we go, God is with us."

    We can not be insignificant, for God lives within.

    There are many who do not understand this. To them, God is something out there, far away. Many feel like you Dan, that God conceals Himself. This ideology is foreign to me. I can understand why people think this way, but I can not personally experience it's understanding, because the Spirit of God is within and always with me.

    Many people's faith is predominately cerebral. Learned and put to memory. The greater the knowledge they acquire, the more they think they know God. Questions of "Quantity and Quality" are examples of cerebral faith. However no one can calculate God. Neither quantity nor quality is better. With God, they are irrelevant.

    And this is because the 'knowing of God' is spiritual. It is acquired by and through the Spirit. It can not be learned. It is experienced. And this is the only true knowing.




    edit to redact. far too many words


    Last edited by Jake Reason on Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:27 am; edited 1 time in total
    dan
    dan
    Special Guest
    Special Guest


    Posts : 9144
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Baltimore

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by dan Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:11 am

    From: Dan Smith
    Date: January 5, 2013 11:02:04 AM EST
    To: Chris L
    Subject: History, cosmology...... small is beautiful?

    Chris, 

    Ron tells my that he has conversed with Larry.  I don't know if this was specifically apropos of Philadelphia, next weekend.  

    Your work has provided me with new insights into the BPWH.  I would like to reciprocate, by phone or by meeting with you in Philadelphia.  

    In a strong sense, our two worldviews could be very complementary.  I am focusing more on human destiny, while your focus is on the logical dimension.  You are looking directly into the workings of the mind of God, while I am looking at the history of our relation to the cosmic mind.......... from whence do we come, and whither do we go?  

    Have you not considered that human history may be bootstrapped and self-contained, all within a closed-timelike-curve (CTC)?  This is how we avoid the paradox of Perpetual Progress and the Fermi paradox.  Jack S and I are pretty much on the same page here.  The ETs become UTs, or ultra-terrestrials.  

    IOW, at what point does a Super-Copernican principle not become a pre-Copernican principle?  

    You speak frequently of cosmic self-reference, recursion and reflexivity.  I simply go the next step, and call it the best possible (small) world.  Have you not been tempted in this direction? 

    Is not Christianity unique in the notion that you and I are soulmates, being God's children, rather than being God's spawn?  Would this not be the Best Possible World (BPW)?  

    Dan 




    1:50------------

    Jake,

    Maybe this is the problem that you share with Khori/GFC, and even with Chris Langan. Your God is totally within. Chris speaks of teleology, but what is teleology, without an historical Telos? Without a Telos, there is no rhyme or reason to history. There may be a personal God, but there is no communal God. The great Sacrament becomes empty, if it is only personal. Did Jesus not understand this?



    (cont.)

    Jake Reason
    Jake Reason
    Admin
    Admin


    Posts : 1008
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Canada

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by Jake Reason Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:16 pm

    dan wrote:
    Jake,

    Maybe this is the problem that you share with Khori/GFC, and even with Chris Langan. Your God is totally within. Chris speaks of teleology, but what is teleology, without an historical Telos? Without a Telos, there is no rhyme or reason to history. There may be a personal God, but there is no communal God. The great Sacrament becomes empty, if it is only personal. Did Jesus not understand this?
    You sure have a propensity to twist things in a most peculiar way.

    Perhaps you don't have the Spirit within, Dan? Perhaps your faith is strictly cerebral? This would make sense, as, if the Spirit was within, you wouldn't be able to think blasphemous thoughts. Even for simply trying to make a point or to provoke inquiry. You simply wouldn't be permitted within yourself to think that you could be the 'Spirit of Truth' or Jesus, if the Holy Spirit also dwelled within. It would be unthinkable.

    I enjoy discussing theology and philosophy with you, Dan. I enjoy exploring other views. However my faith isn't based on knowledge and understanding. I experience faith. There is no question that God can be personal. And God can be personal to as many who open themselves to let the Spirit in. This isn't theology speaking, it is experience. knowing


    Jake Reason
    Jake Reason
    Admin
    Admin


    Posts : 1008
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Canada

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by Jake Reason Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:25 pm

    Let me put it another way.

    Perhaps you had a "Sophia" moment. It was real to you. You experienced it. And it changed your life.

    But perhaps is was only a fleeting moment - there and then not there.

    This is common in Christianity as well. You hear about people re-dedicating their life to Christ. As if once they did and then they didn't. Somehow, the light went on and then went off.

    I went through a period of not fellowshipping with Christians (going to church) for 20 years. But when someone asked if I were "re-dedicating" my life to Christ, it didn't make any sense to me. Because for me, the light never went off. I had left fellowship for other reasons, that had nothing to do with the intensity of my faith.

    ---------------

    Another way of looking at it....

    I studied the First Buddha (5th century BC) during my travels in South East Asia and China. I learned about his life and teaching. And I have great admiration for him. I have often referred to him as a precursor of Christ.

    But I can not say, I am a Buddhist. For someone like me, the only way I could be a true Buddhist, is to be a monk. I may not require being a monk all my life, but I would have to be alone in my thoughts for many years before attaining the Buddhist Nirvana experience. And without that experience, I could not rightfully (in my perspective) call myself a Buddhist.

    ----------------

    We all know there are many Buddhists and Christians who think of themselves as one or the other. But truly, only those who have the spiritual experience can know knowing. When this happens, it can never go away. It goes with you and lives with you.

    And its free to everyone who opens themselves up. And when one does this, they see everything differently. They truly become a new Adam.

    Now, I can't walk on water or anything like that. But there is a light on inside me. Been on a long time, I've forgotten what it was like not to have it.

    Dan, there are many questions you ask, many conceptualizations you ponder and wrestle over, that I don't have to wonder or ponder. They're already answered.

    Are you understanding this, Dan?

    You'll need to eventually, if you wish to be respected in any form of religious leadership or instruction. Because there are Millions of people who have true spiritual experience. Whereas they have come to know, not by reason, but by and through Spirit. If you don't have this, you can't possibly lead the world in your philosophy. Nor could you understand, why not.



    dan
    dan
    Special Guest
    Special Guest


    Posts : 9144
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Baltimore

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by dan Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:10 pm

    Jake,

    I'm one of the least mysterious and most open persons I know of, and, yet, others do seem to find this peculiar.

    But I am a bit worried about Jesus and the Telos. His teleology comes naturally from his messianic mission, his evangelism. Where would that have gone, though, without Paul? Would Christianity have survived, without Paul? The Telos was the Rapture. Could there ever be another Telos, besides the dubious and dangerous notion of utopia?



    (cont.)

    Jake Reason
    Jake Reason
    Admin
    Admin


    Posts : 1008
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Canada

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by Jake Reason Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:35 pm

    dan wrote:Jake,

    I'm one of the least mysterious and most open persons I know of, and, yet, others do seem to find this peculiar.

    But I am a bit worried about Jesus and the Telos. His teleology comes naturally from his messianic mission, his evangelism. Where would that have gone, though, without Paul? Would Christianity have survived, without Paul? The Telos was the Rapture. Could there ever be another Telos, besides the dubious and dangerous notion of utopia?
    Well we would have been fine without Paul. There were 11 others and 70 other disciples were directly trained by "Jesus' to preform miracles. However the Risen Christ made sure there was a Paul on the road to Damascus. And most importantly, the Risen sent a gift on Pentecost. Therein, is the power!

    Cerebral Christianity can only do so much. And it's sufficient for salvation. Although many would disagree with that. But the gift of John 16:13 insures that Christianity would and will continue to survive until the end.

    And speaking of the end, of course there is a Telos. Even scientists have figured that out now, because its written in the Cosmos. However they don't regard the spirit. And without it they remain short sighted.

    You say, "dubious and dangerous notion of utopia"

    My! you don't think G-d would like utopia? 'Jesus' was a liar?

    You are interested in history, Dan. Has there ever been a time in our history that utopia/heaven did not exist?

    Why pray tell, did G-d write it in our hearts?


    Jake Reason
    Jake Reason
    Admin
    Admin


    Posts : 1008
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Canada

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by Jake Reason Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:22 pm

    I don't understand why you think the rapture is the end. Childhood's end, would be apropos. But, The End?

    This doesn't make any historical nor cosmological sense. And of course you know it is the antithesis of all 'Jesus' teachings. Not just some. It even contradicts his resurrection. How could anyone think the rapture is The End and still think himself to be Christian?

    The rapture is a word that describes the manifestation of being "born again". What purpose would there be in being born again, if not to Be? If to Be, how can it be The End? What purpose would there be? Everything would have been for nothing. Then there would be no Telos.

    Might as well be an atheist, Dan. Why waste your time



    dan
    dan
    Special Guest
    Special Guest


    Posts : 9144
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Baltimore

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by dan Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:46 pm

    Jake,

    The confusion you evidence in your last post indicates that you do not comprehend even the most basic features of the BPWH. I may be responsible for some of your confusion, but not all of it. Arguing with you is rather like arguing with Louise. There were some things she just refused to understand, or even hear, no matter how many times I repeated them.

    Jake Reason
    Jake Reason
    Admin
    Admin


    Posts : 1008
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Canada

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by Jake Reason Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:06 pm

    Huh?

    You'll note I answer most of your questions. While you often prefer to deflect and/or redirect the subject. A little more balance would be appreciated. My questions above are relatively fundamental. Worthy to answer, no? Set the record straight.

    Let's try this again....Teleology - final cause

    What's on the other side, Dan?


    The End of Ego? that works, nothing incongruent about that. But that wouldn't constitute The End. There would still be a "born again", which means a continuance, yes/no? What's wrong with a Utopia/heaven?

    What's on the other side, after the end of the whole shebang?

    dan
    dan
    Special Guest
    Special Guest


    Posts : 9144
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Baltimore

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by dan Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:49 am

    A few days ago, Gary B alerted me to articles by Mensky and Novikov, whose links were posted above. These physicists are also mentioned in Gary's very recent article on Starpod...... http://www.starpod.us/2013/01/05/russian-physicist-michael-mensky-explains-the-physics-of-human-time-machines/ .

    I'm just about finished with Michael's article...... Postcorrection and mathematical model of life in Extended Everett's Concept, in which he also mentions Yakir Aharonov's concept of weak measurements, that Jack and I discussed on YouTube, in connection with the CTCs of consciousness. Thus do we have the three fundamental ideas of the BPWH, being discussed in one place, and by Gary. Now, if only we could get Jack and Chris more fully on-board.

    Here is where virtually all of my competition is missing the boat (from Gary)........
    In order to explain how human beings can become time travelers, Mensky developed an extended version of “many worlds” theory, where the human mind is able to access alternative worlds, including those we would call the future. Mensky has proposed that “consciousness is not produced by the brain, but is independent of it.” In Mensky’s theory, “the brain serves as an interface between consciousness and the body.”
    Here we see the best and the brightest, allegedly still struggling with quantum dualism, a PoV that I transcended 30 years ago.

    And Gary goes on to point out........
    Although Mensky’s ideas appear to be based in metaphysics, the real-world application of human time travelers to access information about the future by the NSA suggests an information channel is being studied by America’s premier information technology intelligence agency. Given the decades of interest in this topic by American and Russian, and now Chinese intelligence services, the on-going use of human time machines to predict future threats seems certain.
    Should we truly suppose that the Insiders could have come this close to CL/BPWH, and then missed the gold-ring, just by getting hung-up, yet again, with Cartesian/quantum dualism? I don't think so, sports fans. There are folks in the world who are paid handsomely to keep their minds open, metaphysically, unlike Louise and Jake.


    Jake,

    What you keep missing is that, with the BPWH, we get to have our cake, and eat it, too. This has everything to do with the CTCs, once they are seen from a non-dualistic perspective, as Michael is very close to doing, IMO.



    Now, off to SfA...........

    .
    Jake Reason
    Jake Reason
    Admin
    Admin


    Posts : 1008
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Canada

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by Jake Reason Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:38 am

    dan wrote:
    There are folks in the world who are paid handsomely to keep their minds open, metaphysically, unlike Louise and Jake.


    Jake,

    What you keep missing is that, with the BPWH, we get to have our cake, and eat it, too. This has everything to do with the CTCs, once they are seen from a non-dualistic perspective, as Michael is very close to doing, IMO.
    If your BPWH metaphysics does not include a Teleological argument for 'purpose' and 'final cause', then it is rudimentary in my view.

    I had hoped you might have addressed the questions.

    Enjoy your "Search for Answers" meeting.



    Jake Reason
    Jake Reason
    Admin
    Admin


    Posts : 1008
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Canada

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by Jake Reason Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:14 pm

    You say the Telos is the rapture or eschaton. Buddha said the same thing in another language. So too are Jack and Tamara, in a different language.

    These Teleologies are not much more developed than; the Telos of a Seed is a Tree. And the Telos of the Tree is a Seed.

    But why the Tree and seed at all? What purpose, what Telos? To feed an insect or animal. To shade another plant, etc, etc.

    But what is the Teleology of the whole shebang?

    Presumably most scientists and philosophers would agree that all things are interconnected, symbiotic and orderly in some way or another. It is upon this foundation that science and philosophy can reliably build their observations and conclusions. If there wasn't predictable order and form, science and philosophy would crumble.

    Yet why Dan, do you, science and philosophy stop at CTC?

    Is it because it is the end of Trees and Seeds, so there's is nothing more to talk about? Of course most would contest this statement as indignantly preposterous. Is it? Isn't this the same as asking, What was the Teleology of the Big Bang Singularity?

    Buddha discovered, "all life is suffering". That was genius for a Bronze Age man. He didn't have telecommunications to test his hypothesis. He also figured out an eight fold path to address solutions to suffering. But he too couldn't fathom a Teleology that went any further than a CTC. And never figured why suffering was originally designed. What Purpose? What Final Cause?

    If all creation/cosmos is unified and coherent in some form, then would it not also provide all information required to ascertain its final purpose and final cause?

    It is my contention that any "theory of everything" must fundamentally address and arguably answer this question.

    Anything less is rudimentary imo. No better than the bronze age man.


    But I respectfully understand that considering a more comprehensive Teleology is beyond most people's comfort zone.

    >

    Ironically, more comprehensive Teleologies address and explain both the purpose and final cause of most people's discomfort in this regard. Afterall, a Teleological "theory of everything" includes everything.



    dan
    dan
    Special Guest
    Special Guest


    Posts : 9144
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Baltimore

    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by dan Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:13 am

    I've heard nothing back from Chris L, or about a Phila meeting. Too bad. The complementarity that I see in the CTMU and the BPWH still stands, nonetheless.

    I was a bit confrontational at the end of the SfA meeting, or it ended when I became confrontational. As with Jake, here. I continue to argue that Size matters more, in Xianity, than anywhere else. In the light of the X-event, quality matters infinitely more than quantity.

    To some degree, this echoes an opinion piece in today's Times....... http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/05/the-myth-of-universal-love/?ref=opinion . If you can overlook most of the sociobiology stuff, his is an argument for the small world of the BPWH. The only additional point to keep in mind is, when given just one necessarily small, best possible, world, it is going, per force, to be a very crowded little world, at least up until the Day of Diclosure.

    IOW, 10^10 critters is a maximal temporal challenge to our mortal powers of Agape. Yes? I'm fairly sure that Stephen Asma would agree.

    Bill S adjourned the SfA early, and everyone left except Rick G. We kept going for another hour and a half, with my making liberal use of the whiteboard, and I only got to see the last 10' of our playoff with our old nemesis, the Indiannapolis Colts.

    How much longer can the SfA stonewall the SoT? Or is the GFC just too small for both of us?


    Jake,

    It seems that you are inviting me to put an Xian spin onto the question of why there is something rather than nothing........

    The Buddhist view is that we would have been better off with nothing. The material seeming world is simply a measure of our Karma. Our best option is to escape to the nullity of nirvana. On one level, I tend to agree, in that, IMHO, heaven will entail an eventual loss of our ego-consciousness. We will be submerged in the cosmic sea of Agape, being rocked in the bosom of Abraham, if you will.


    So, what is the Xian take on existence and suffering? The answer is not clear, certainly not just from the Bible. The closest to an answer is found in Job and in the Passion. With Job, it is a wager between God and Satan, not terribly ennobling, taken at face value. With the Passion, it is the sacrifice to end all sacrifices. Well, that's ok, in theory, but it hasn't totally worked out, just yet.

    I keep having to look up theodicy......... There is the argument from free-will, which, imo, only explains personal evil, and only a very local scale.


    Here is the BPW deal....... We are in training to become godlets, and then God. It's not like there's a hierarchy, it's more just by inclusion, rather than a gradation. It is a strict monism, in eternity. The cosmic Monad or Self, is the asymptotic limit the ramified zodiacal trinity. Are there also angels........ with or without free-will? Why not? The more the merrier.......

    This is the Telos. Is that ok with you, Jake?

    And this is the best possible God with the best possible Creation. Would there were none? Wouldn't that be pretty dumb? But it may be impossible for there to be nothing. There is always liable to be a spontaneous something, so, given all the possible inferior somethings, is it not better to invoke a cosmic censorship, with the optimal degree of sponteneity and inclusiveness? And so we are looking at it, the BPW.

    Suppose we want to be artists, and create our own little worlds.... How much choice would we have, sub-specie aeternitas? Suppose they were suboptimal. I can't say, off hand, but I haven't lost much sleep over it, yet.


    1:15------------

    Given that Creation is an essential part of eternity, the implication is that nothing exists beyond the pale of the cosmic mind. We can run, but we can't hide. That may be the biggest defect of existence. But is not privacy an essential human right? But privacy, even in the form of a Swiss vault, is only ever provisional and conditional. There is no absolute nothing!


    3:35------------

    Sam suggests that we talk about our various (Green) visions for the future......... what keeps a Green activist active? What keeps hope alive? Can we keep working without hope?

    Are we hoping to improve the world/environment? Keep things from getting too much worse, too quickly? Just trying to save a small part of the world?

    How dire is our present situation? How much worse might things get, before they get better? Or is human extinction and/or global collapse of civilization a definite possibility? IOW, does the world need to be saved?

    How saved......? Technology vs. Politics? Can we see any way out of the human predicament? IOW, will it require a 'miracle'?

    Has the human (evolutionary) experiment reached its natural conclusion? Interesting while it lasted! Are we just nature's little experiment? An experiment by which nature almost does itself in?

    Were we intended to be Nature's stewards, but then succumbed to a mission creep, so that we have become merely a cancer on the planet? Were we invented so as to divert asteroids, or otherwise promote something akin to Biodiversity?

    What are we to make of the so-called Anthropic principle? Rare planet in a rare universe?

    But are we meat-machines?

    The WAP does not fit with the mind/brain problem.


    5:40pm------------

    On what basis do we appeal to others, if there is not the possibility of a universal morality, a morality that transcends chemistry, perhaps. Is this important? Is there anything wrong with sociobiology? Even the Marxists were inclined to pour cold water on EO Wilson.

    Biology is destiny? Biological determinism is considered inimical to liberal visions of human meliorism. It raises the specter of social Darwinism and eugenics.



    (cont.)


    Sponsored content


    Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II - Page 30 Empty Re: Hello, Cy, hello, OMF II

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:12 am