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Who's Disclosure is Disclosure?

Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:16 am by Cyrellys

The narrative war is in full swing. When there's a 100 different competing narratives, how is it possible to discern a disclosure?

Is it akin to which truth is Truth?




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Immaterialism 3

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Post by dan on Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:09 pm

First topic message reminder :

[The original topic reminder post http://openmindsforum.forumotion.com/t320-immaterialism
should be substituted here... ]
............



(cont......)
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Post by Ack on Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:06 am





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Post by dan on Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:06 am

cw,

Infinite regress...... are you sure about that?  

Then they don’t believe in persons.  Leon told me that we were the brothers and sisters of Jesus, and that we can all be saved..... to go to the next level?  

I’ll need a source for that one.
.........

Tom C is definitely a step or two beyond Jason L. I’m only still on chapter one, I believe...... there are no thumbnails.



(cont.......)
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Post by Guest on Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:18 am

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Post by dan on Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:32 am

cw,

I believe there may some ambiguity as to the existence of other worlds.  

I wonder if there are no scholarly treatments of their beliefs.

Well, I’ll start with the Wikipedia article........
Mormons believe that these people will become gods and goddesses in the afterlife, and will have "all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge".[8] Mormons teach that exalted people will live with their earthly families and will also "have spirit children":[9] their posterity will grow forever.
Hmmm....... maybe you’re right.  

Are we going to have to rescue Disclosure from an lds hegemony?  

Joe’s beliefs may be closer to orthodoxy than I presumed.  

I’m not giving up on Mormonism. It is not as dualistic as orthodox Christianity, but it tends more toward the material than the immaterial. I’d rather have Mormons overseeing the operation at the lake/ranch than the military.



(cont.......)


Last edited by dan on Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Guest on Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:48 am

Dan,

Nailing down what Mormons believe is about as easy as nailing Jello to a wall. This is because of the issue with what exactly constitutes authoritative/normative teachings and doctrines for the common Mormon. They have the Book of Mormon, the Bible, Doctrines and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. I believe that each of these have a different status of authority in their eyes. Then you have the pronouncements of the prophets and Presidents of the Church, which have a different type of authority. The video that I posted is based upon more obscure sources of Mormon belief, but they are sources nevertheless.

Mormonism is similar to Masonry, especially Temple Mormonism (they even wear masonic-like aprons). Joseph Smith was a Mason himself, and his martyrdom has been claimed by some to be an execution by fellow masons for revealing secrets, and effectively starting his own rogue Masonic temple. This would be consistent with his final words which were supposedly "My Lord and My God." The Masonic distress signal is "Oh Lord, My God, is there no help for the widows Son." The idea is he was pleading for mercy from his fellow Masons whose fingers were on the triggers pointed at him.

But if Mormonism is just a form of Masonry, adapted to the religious revivalism of the frontier, then it's no surprise that their actual beliefs are obscure and based upon level of initiation (i.e. within temple Mormonism). There are plenty of scholarly sources if you look for them.

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Post by Ack on Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:51 am

As a lifelong Mormon, that video is mostly accurate.

A few corrections,
1. The black skin stuff has changed in recent days to be more symbolic but originally it was more literal.

2. They don't believe God came down and had sex with Mary. They think it was just some magic virgin conception like most others, which makes even less sense in my opinion.

3. They don't believe Jesus was ever married or had children.

4. They don't believe Joseph Smith has done more for the salvation of man including Christ, the word they use is 'save Jesus christ'. Joseph Smith has done more for the salvation of mankind save Jesus Christ.

Other than that, it's pretty much spot on.

Mormon cosmology is definitely a BWH hypothesis. Each and every person who proves themselves worthy will go on to become a polygamist God and create worlds without number of their own and populate those worlds with their spirit offspring and one of those offspring will act as the savior like Jesus did for us here. It is infinite Gods and infinite Christs and infinite worlds.
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Post by Ack on Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:20 pm

desertdweller wrote:Dan,

Nailing down what Mormons believe is about as easy as nailing Jello to a wall.  This is because of the issue with what exactly constitutes authoritative/normative teachings and doctrines for the common Mormon.  They have the Book of Mormon, the Bible, Doctrines and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.  I believe that each of these have a different status of authority in their eyes.  Then you have the pronouncements of the prophets and Presidents of the Church, which have a different type of authority.  The video that I posted is based upon more obscure sources of Mormon belief, but they are sources nevertheless.

Mormonism is similar to Masonry, especially Temple Mormonism (they even wear masonic-like aprons).  Joseph Smith was a Mason himself, and his martyrdom has been claimed by some to be an execution by fellow masons for revealing secrets, and effectively starting his own rogue Masonic temple.  This would be consistent with his final words which were supposedly "My Lord and My God."  The Masonic distress signal is "Oh Lord, My God, is there no help for the widows Son."  The idea is he was pleading for mercy from his fellow Masons whose fingers were on the triggers pointed at him.

But if Mormonism is just a form of Masonry, adapted to the religious revivalism of the frontier, then it's no surprise that their actual beliefs are obscure and based upon level of initiation (i.e. within temple Mormonism).  There are plenty of scholarly sources if you look for them.


The video you posted about 'God was once like us and we can become like God' is not obscure. It is very mainstream teaching and is spoken about regularly. I was in church yesterday and they spoke about it in Sunday School.

Yes, Mormons have several different books. They believe the Book of Mormon to be the keystone of their religion though. They believe the Book of Mormon to be the most doctrinally pure word of God as the Bible has been through too many translations and has lost much of it's purity over time as it has been altered and changed over the years.

The living Prophet has the highest authority even over the Book of Mormon or any other scripture, but the prophets never teach anything contrary to what is written in the Book of Mormon.

I've never heard that Joseph Smith's martyrdom was an execution of fellow masons. It is told that it was a mob of angry men that hated the Mormons living in their state.

There is no initiation in the Temples in the same sense as there would be in a mason lodge.
There is one initiation and one endowment ceremony and a marriage sealing.

You go through those three ceremonies for yourself once and that's it. After going through once you have completed all your required ordinances to enter the top tier of the celestial kingdom after you die. Of course you also had to have been baptized by immersion by one holding the priesthood and applied the atonement of Christ through faith and repentance. If you stay worthy and prepared and live righteously and continue to apply the atonement and repent and change, you will eventually be transformed into a God and live in the Celestial Kingdom and create your own universe.

If you are only baptized and don't do the temple ordinances you can go to the celestial Kingdom (highest level of heaven, there are three), but you can't become a God.

After you go through the temple and do the ordinances for yourself, then you keep going back and do them for ancestors who never had the chance to do them while living. You go through as a proxy for the dead and the dead can choose to accept of not accept the ordinances on the other side.

You can't get a temple recommend to go in the temple unless you pay your 10% tithing and follow the word of wisdom and law of chastity which says no drugs or alcohol or coffee or porn or sex outside of marriage.


Last edited by Aaron on Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:48 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Guest on Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:29 pm

Aaron,

Thanks for the info. Like I said, I was uncertain about some things, and the whole thing about Masons killing Smith was more of a conspiracy theory, but I find it an interesting thought. I have noticed that there are quite a few masonic lodges next to mormon temples. At least where I grew up in Michigan, I noticed that pattern.

Do you think it's possible that, not necessarily in the temple, but in the Church hierarchy, there might hidden/secret beliefs and doctrines which are not taught to the rest?
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Post by Ack on Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:37 pm

My Grandfather is a Patriarch in the church which is pretty high up in the hierarchy. We are very close and he is very open about everything. One of my best friends growing up had a grandpa who was one of the 12 apostles in the church, L Tom Perry.

There is nothing I am aware of that is secret or hidden doctrine that is taught. Everything taught is pretty open and straight forward.

You don't get more information based on level of initiation or anything like that.

Pretty much everything can be found here, including temple ordinances, the Second Coming and The Millennium beliefs and becoming like God stuff (under the Exaltation chapter) :

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles?lang=eng


Last edited by Aaron on Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Guest on Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:40 pm

Aaron,

With the Mormon missionaries that I have interacted with, it seems that some of what you affirmed above, they either try to deny or downplay. Especially in seeking out evangelical converts, or converts from other Christian denominations, do you see a push to at least avoid talking about some of these things until they are in the door?
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Post by Ack on Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:42 pm

desertdweller wrote:Aaron,

With the Mormon missionaries that I have interacted with, it seems that some of what you affirmed above, they either try to deny or downplay.  Especially in seeking out evangelical converts, or converts from other Christian denominations, do you see a push to at least avoid talking about some of these things until they are in the door?

Yes!

They will try to focus on the commonalities first so they can get in the door.
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Post by Guest on Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:46 pm

Got it. Maybe that's where I got the idea that some of this is obscure, or not fully taught.

Thanks for the clarity.

Next question.

I just read about Dee's angels telling him and Kelly to engage in some wife swapping/polygamy.

Do you think Smith encountered Dee's "Angels?"
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Post by Ack on Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:58 pm

I've never heard of Smith encountering Dees Angels.

Smith was supposedly directed by The Lord himself in a revelation to instigate the practice of plural marriage within the church. This was supposedly because there were many women who were single or widowed and needed the support of a husband, and also supposedly because having many wives is a good way to quickly increase the population/membership of a church in its early years. Later the practice was terminated after the Mormons were well established in Utah.
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Post by Guest on Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:13 pm

Well, I was more asking what you think, rather than what you have heard. Dee believed he was being used to create a New World Order under Angels. New, and bizarre forms of Christianity, started by Angelic revelation or encounters with Divine beings, seem to be a common theme post Dee (i.e. Seventh Day Adventism, Swedenborgianism, etc).
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Post by Ack on Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:33 pm

Mormons are idolaters and materialists through and through.

They cling very tightly to their books and prophets and literalism of the Jesus myth and a literal second coming, and earning their way to Exaltation in the afterlife, etc.

I go to church on Sunday because my wife is Mormon and wants me to go with her, so I do.

I usually sit in the back with my wife during Sunday School and scratch her back and ignore most of what is being taught.

It was my best possible foundation and I embrace it as such, but I am a Goat and Snake at heart.

I go my own way and avoid group thought. Don't tread on me either, give me liberty or give me death.

I would prefer reading the Tao Te Ching over the Book of Mormon or the Bible any day, but in the end all books must be figuratively burned.

IT is beyond all words or concepts.

You are IT, always have been and always will be.

Mormons, along with most of the world, look outward and to the past and future for truth and peace, but truth and peace is within and here and now.

We look out and to the past and future until we find what is there points us to ourselves and the here and now.


Last edited by Aaron on Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Ack on Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:34 pm

desertdweller wrote:Well, I was more asking what you think, rather than what you have heard.  Dee believed he was being used to create a New World Order under Angels.  New, and bizarre forms of Christianity, started by Angelic revelation or encounters with Divine beings, seem to be a common theme post Dee (i.e. Seventh Day Adventism, Swedenborgianism, etc).

I see, I don't know enough about Dee to have an opinion.

However, Joseph Smith would probably also say he was being directed by angels and the Lord to create a New World Order, yes.

"The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear; till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done."
-Joseph Smith

This New World Order culminating with the Second Coming and Jesus ruling as King and declaring the Mormon Church as his one true church of course.
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Post by Ack on Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:03 pm

I learned I'm a metaphysical solipsist.

Right now I'm typing a blog post to figments of my imagination.

I'm dreaming all of you and all of this.

I'm all alone, but I'm tricking myself to believe I'm not.

shrug.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysical_solipsism
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Post by smelly on Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:23 pm

dan wrote:cw,

Infinite regress...... are you sure about that?  

Then they don’t believe in persons.  Leon told me that we were the brothers and sisters of Jesus, and that we can all be saved..... to go to the next level?  

I’ll need a source for that one.
.........

Tom C is definitely a step or two beyond Jason L.  I’m only still on chapter one, I believe...... there are no thumbnails.  



(cont.......)

Tom and his friends are very special and I was going to say far beyond Jason yesterday.

Synchronicity, so we are tuned in.

Welcome to the other side of ignorance Dan Wink

He kind of blows Christianity out of the water.

I bet you didn’t like that, bahahaha.

Who cares what we like Wink


Last edited by smelly on Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Ack on Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:25 pm

One reason for the lack of support of this philosophical position is how strange it would be for a solipsist to preach solipsism – as if to convince everyone around them that they are purely a figment of the author's own imagination. The very idea of communicating philosophical ideas would be arbitrary to a true solipsist, as according to them, there is no other mind with whom they would communicate their beliefs.
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Post by smelly on Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:29 pm

One can not ever judge the Mystical Philosopher or categorize the experiences.

We are pulling back a blanket that covers a black light.

You have to walk the walk and then you will know.

If you don’t know, you don’t know.

That’s ok and we all start there.

All of the Logos is to push you to self inquiry.

You have to rip off these prejudices like ropes that bind you.

Once you touch it, you can’t shut up.
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Post by smelly on Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:37 pm

dan wrote:cw,

I believe there may some ambiguity as to the existence of other worlds.  

I wonder if there are no scholarly treatments of their beliefs.

Well, I’ll start with the Wikipedia article........
Mormons believe that these people will become gods and goddesses in the afterlife, and will have "all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge".[8] Mormons teach that exalted people will live with their earthly families and will also "have spirit children":[9] their posterity will grow forever.
Hmmm....... maybe you’re right.  

Are we going to have to rescue Disclosure from an lds hegemony?  

Joe’s beliefs may be closer to orthodoxy than I presumed.  

I’m not giving up on Mormonism.  It is not as dualistic as orthodox Christianity, but it tends more toward the material than the immaterial.   I’d rather have Mormons overseeing the operation at the lake/ranch than the military.  



(cont.......)

I’d rather have Tom C at the Lake.

The blind leading the blind as far as I see.

I have the ball.

Tag, your it.
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Post by smelly on Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:40 pm

“no drugs or alcohol or coffee or porn or sex outside of marriage.”

Fuck that shit Wink

You are alive, dance with Pan, play with Dionysus.

Ignore all the stupid wrong muppets.

No one has authority of you.

And any who asserts or claims, kick in the ass.

Have fun.

Straight on.
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Post by smelly on Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:44 pm

And btw, this oart I love, you can’t cheat or pretend.

Bahahaha

You have to intiate yourself and you have to change your body through the work to gain access to the mysteries.

No muppet can understand, contain or grant you anything.

Most won’t do it.

Too bad, it’s divine.
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Post by smelly on Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:47 pm

desertdweller wrote:Got it.  Maybe that's where I got the idea that some of this is obscure, or not fully taught.

Thanks for the clarity.

Next question.

I just read about Dee's angels telling him and Kelly to engage in some wife swapping/polygamy.

Do you think Smith encountered Dee's "Angels?"

If you are man, you have a female Daimon.

If you are a woman, you have a male one.

You make a foursome and they are the ones who bring the muppets together.

Then the 4 of you roll around in life together.

Don’t be literal, Dee is not literal.

Every ism is a dead end and just citadels that scared muppets have erected to look over the gate.

Sorry, you have to go through the gate and shed all these illusions.

Then you won’t ever talk about or give time to an ism again.
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Post by Ack on Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:52 pm

I did give way to much time to that ism today.

I don't even want to explain it to anyone ever again.

Straight on.



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