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Immaterialism

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Post by dan on Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:52 am

First topic message reminder :

Ok, here we go...... as I take a deep breath.......

Well, this post will be reserved as the topical reminder.  Hopefully the discussion will last for more that one page.

(Please keep in mind the links given in the fifth post on this thread...... http://openmindsforum.forumotion.com/t313-three-in-one )

.


Last edited by dan on Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Guest on Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:03 pm

Dan,

Psalm 19:1–4 (NKJV): The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.
2 Day unto day utters speech,
And night unto night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language
Where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their words to the end of the world. Psalm 19:1-4
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Post by 99 on Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:17 pm

dd wrote:What if we had a technology that brought immaterialism from the realm of metaphysics into the realm of the tangible?

It's already well established that intelligence's from other realms can interact with our technology trans-dimensionally resulting in the opening of portals to manifest in various ways, depending on the tech.used, that results in visual and/or audio communication with them... and more.


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Post by dan on Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:20 pm

dd,

Certainly, technology has been the handmaiden of materialism.  

But it’s interesting that we have the internet of things, now.  Our devices certainly serve the function of portals.  

Technology has led us into the jungle of materialism.  But we can only get half way in, before it begins to lead us out again.  Our communication protocols establish many sorts of virtual realities.  We are into a cloud of metaphysics.

And, yes, dd, the firmament is God’s cosmetic, we might suppose.

Technology is irreducibly teleological. Technology is the reification/routinization of teleology, it is a primary conduit of the Telos. The Logos is the other channel for the Telos. The Telos/Omega is our ultimate portal. The Alpha is just the side of that portal.


(cont.......)


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Post by GSB/SSR on Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:03 pm

If you want to chew on the nature of life, the universe and everything mathematical in nature:

I explore physics implications of the External Reality Hypothesis (ERH) that there exists an external physical reality completely independent of us humans. I argue that with a sufficiently broad definition of mathematics, it implies the Mathematical Universe Hypothesis (MUH) that our physical world is an abstract mathematical structure. I discuss various implications of the ERH and MUH, ranging from standard physics topics like symmetries, irreducible representations, units, free parameters, randomness and initial conditions to broader issues like consciousness, parallel universes and Godel incompleteness. I hypothesize that only computable and decidable (in Godel's sense) structures exist, which alleviates the cosmological measure problem and help explain why our physical laws appear so simple. I also comment on the intimate relation between mathematical structures, computations, simulations and physical systems.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/0704.0646.pdf


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Post by dan on Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:26 pm

Gary,

I don’t see how there can exist an abstraction without an abstractor.  

Mad Max Tegmark is our abstractor par excellence.  His is the Pythagorean form of pantheism.  

One question for you is whether mathematics can exist without logic, and whether logic can exist without words/Logos.  

There is the UEM.... unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics, as well as remarkable unity of mathematics. These are both aspects of the unity of nature, which, in turn is a reflection of Monad.

The Big Bang and evolution are also reflections of the monism.

Mad Max is actually a mystic, disguised as a theoretical physicist. You almost have to be a mystic to be such.



(cont.......)
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Post by GSB/SSR on Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:49 pm

Actually, Max is just 'mad' ...

Another oldie goldie ...

We discuss the nature of reality in the ontological context of Penrose's math-matter-mind triangle. The triangle suggests the circularity of the widespread view that math arises from the mind, the mind arises out of matter, and that matter can be explained in terms of math. Non-physicists should be wary of any claim that modern physics leads us to any particular resolution of this circularity, since even the sample of three theoretical physicists writing this paper hold three divergent views. Some physicists believe that current physics has already found the basic framework for a complete description of reality, and only has to fill in the details. Others suspect that no single framework, from physics or other sources, will ever capture reality. Yet others guess that reality might be approached arbitrarily closely by some form of future physics, but probably based on completely different frameworks. We will designate these three approaches as the fundamentalist, secular and mystic views of the world, as seen by practicing physicists. We present and contrast each of these views, which arguably form broad categories capturing most if not all interpretations of physics. We argue that this diversity in the physics community is more useful than an ontological monoculture, since it motivates physicists to tackle unsolved problems with a wide variety of approaches.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0510188.pdf


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Post by dan on Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:59 pm

Gary,

Thank you for reminding us of Penrose’s golden triangle of mind >> math >> matter >> mind.  On its face, it may be unresolvable.  

Who is going to cut this Gordian knot? Only we can, and that strongly points to the irreducible nature of mind.  Does the unity mind reflect the unity of nature.  I suspect it’s the other way.
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Post by Guest on Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:16 pm

Dan,

Isn’t putting the unity of “nature” before the unity of mind, reducing us once again to impersonalism? Or are we talking about the unity of the nature/essence of mind, before the mind itself?
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Post by Guest on Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:35 pm

Dan,

So about the "ground zero" event in the "Three in One" thread...

I am inclined to believe that the "contract" that Footman posted was complete bunk, though it does seem that Joe has made some sort of progress.

But if there really is a technology that brings the noumenal into the phenomenal - and thus somehow bring the immaterial into the empirical - then I would say the SWH (as you have outlined) wins.

TTSA is going for the BWH, you are going for the SWH. TTSA has everyone looking out to the stars, Joe's device will have everyone looking much closer to home.

Even Mr. Elizondo has mentioned in passing that the visitors may be from either "outer space, or inner space." Maybe TTSA is just phase 1, to get everyone's attention. But as you have eluded, then everything will be turned "inside out." No?

Care to comment/elaborate?

Care to elaborate?
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Post by dan on Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:09 am

dd,

Read my post again...... I agree with you.....

The unity of nature is a mere reflection of the unity of mind.  Furthermore, the unity of mind is a mere reflection of the absolute unity of all existence.  

Herein lies the holy grail, I do believe.  

And you’re right...... with regard to the Lakeside phenomenon vs the TTSA phenomenon.  The Truth is within.  

How do we know all this...?  It only requires a mustard seed of faith.  

An important question..... why something and not nothing?  

That’s also a false question.  

The simple fact is that only everything can exist.  Nothing is the only thing that cannot exist.  Even paradoxes exist.  

I’ve been trying to avoid Hegelian absolutism, but, in the end, we cannot avoid the Absolute, because the Monad is, obviously, the Absolute.  

I consider myself a relationalist...... to exist is to relate.  One thing exists, because it relates to another.  Ultimately, everything has to relate to everything.  But even that is not enough.....

There must be an Absolute existence, or nothing exists.

There must be a hub to existence.  There is a hub to the hive.  We call her Aliyah.  She and I can have fisticuffs.  

We are chips off the old block.  We are microcosms.

We play with a full deck.  

Atoms play with E8xE8 ~ F4.  That’s a big deck, hobbit, but it’s not a full deck.  Not by a long shot.  

Sorry about that.  I apologize.  Persons are uniquely microcosmic.  And we’re uniquely arrogant, as you’ve already noticed.  

Atoms and Fido are not.  What a shame.  

We should take this up with God.  

We need arrogant atoms, rocks and Fidos.  The universe would then be a much better place.  Then people wouldn’t talk back to you and me, hobbit.  

Well, I guess everything would talk back to everything.  

Is your uncle, Fibonacci, in the trees and flowers?  

Or are the trees and flowers in your uncle?  

Maybe they reflect his mind?  

Are we the mirror of nature, or is nature the mirror of us?  

You are a pantheist, hobbit. I’m a panentheist. Get over it. Get used to it........ panentheism. I don’t think it will kill you, and I don’t think you’ll start kicking dogs..... especially not sleeping ones.

.


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Post by hobbit on Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:19 am

dan wrote:99, dd and hobbit,

Outside of ourselves we attempt to observe, measure and identity things with the help of mathematics.  

It is said that mathematics is the language of nature.  If it is, we are the only ones listening.  Does nature talk to itself? I doubt it.  

No point in objectifying, if we can’t identify.  This is the rub.  We are the only identifiers.  

I agree that mathematics is mind independent.  There are Platonists who suppose otherwise, but they appeal to a cosmic mind or Platonic heaven.  

Mathematics could be seen as just another form of memory, certainly a mnemonic device.  


(cont........)


We are not the only ones observing the maths.
trees/ plants/shells /in fact all of natures creations observe Fibonacci maths.


I stumbled upon a freshly cut down tree, it had been cut into 9 inch logs and were all lined up , I noted carefully how the branches were angled around the trunk, and how each branch had a hardwood stem going into the layers of growth rings, it was all to Fibonacci.


All of nature cannot help but be so as the matrix of the supply grid for consciousness is so arranged.



We are so arranged, and is why the term " built in gods image " derives from.


We are not unique though in any way or manner, it is human arrogance that thinks so.


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Post by dan on Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:02 am

It seems there have been two breakthroughs, so far today.  Anyone for a third?

One was metaphysical, and the second was political.  

The second surprised me sufficiently that I’ve almost forgotten the first.  I don’t know how to characterize it.  

I think I got hobbit’s number, finally.  That breakthrough was mainly just a tidying up of some ontological loose ends, not having to do with immaterialism directly.  

I can’t even reconstruct my chain of thought.  I just had the feeling of being stuck on something, but then it just gave way, like a portal, I guess.  

And, on the second matter, I think I’ve got donald’s number.  I think he’s trying to hijack the country....... but so am I.  The bad news for donny is that I got here three years before he did, and I know how to be subtle....... how to call my shots, and not waste ammo.  donny is just so careless.  Does he truly not have clue? The problem with donny is that he subscribes to the CorTT, and has no idea what that is.  I guess I’ll just have to take hobbit and donny to school.  

Now, if only I could remember the darn lesson plan......

Let’s see......

We could start with CohTT.......

If a little coherence is good, is more coherence better?  

Coherence is the one thing we just can’t get enough of?  Something like that.  

If that is the case, we must have an infinite amount of it.  

Where is all this coherence hiding?  Mainly inside of ourselves.  

Why didn’t someone clue us in, before?  I guess the time wasn’t right.  

As it is, we’re all wound up pretty tight, now.  But it may all be downhill from here, in the sense that we’re in the home stretch.

Are the animals in the home stretch......?  

Not really....... in the sense that they never left home.  

hobbit, go ask any animal if they feel alienated.  I think they’d say, what the f*ck are you talking about hobbit?

Ok, ask a cheetah, pacing in her cage if she feels alienated...... of course she does.  Go ask Fido if he feels alienated...... what the f*ck, are you talking about, hobbit?

Ask hobbit if he feels alienated......... hell, yeah, man!  

Ask donny if he feels alienated....... hell, yeah, man!  

What are they alienated from?  The only consistent answer would likely be something like God or nirvana.  And they’d be right.  

Ask joe six pack, at the ballpark with his buddies watching the home team winning the pennant....... he would say..... what the f*ck are you talking about?  

So, what is donny trying to prove?  I’m not actually sure.  

I’m speculating that donny believes that we amuricans feel alienated from our manifest destiny.  

Does donny think he has a handle on that Destiny?  

He might, and he might not be so far off the mark.  

But, right now, I’m kinda standing in the way, and he might feel a bit frustrated about that.  

How can I relieve his frustration......?

Well, donny needs to relieve our trepidation.  donny’s behaving like smelly....... what the f*ck do I care, it’s all just a game, and who cares about the rules?  

Well, donny, you’ve gotten off your reservation.  Try boring us, for a change.  See if you can do that.  We’ve got more important stuff to think about.  See if you can be something other than the world’s biggest distraction.  I’m mean, if that’s what your script is saying, well, ok, donny, but, in that case, you’re not likely to last much longer before the white coats come knocking.  

I know, donny’s seen Paris, and, like with smelly, it’s hard to keep him down on the farm.  

Foot has had plenty of practice keeping me on the farm...... in my cage.  It hardly rattles at all.  Speaking of which........

Is Joe quite as clueless as he pretends to be.

I think he is.  That’s why he’s keeping so many secrets.  Basically, like donny, and unlike smelly, he’s paranoid about most everything.  

donny is one part joe and the other part smelly.  

Where does the lad fit into this picture?  I gather that the lad has also seen Paris, but....... but what.....?

But he was just a tourist.  Do donny and vlad and the others, do they want green cards?  They would all have to retire, first, kinda like aloisius.  They’d rather play the game, knowing what they know.  

Hmmm....... that kinda sounds like me.  My problem...... I figured out the game before it was too late...... back in ‘77 and ‘91.  And foot kept me on the short leash...... for my own good, mind you.  

I do get my jollies, once in awhile.  

And, fortunately, I do have a fairly long standing obsession with the truth.  That’s been my shortest leash.  


12:10........

Look, I had my fair share of frustration and alienation, but, really, getting to blog the truth while sitting at home with a fresh breeze blowing and a glass of wine....... it’s pretty hard for me to imagine a better job.  

Should you be jealous......?

Maybe.  Should I feel sorry?  Maybe.

So what, if I have the best possible job?  Do I deserve it?  

I sincerely doubt it.  Am I just lucky?  Maybe..... I won the job lottery.  

I do feel a bit like a connoisseur, here...... like I’ve been in the wine tasting business for a while, so I know how to sit back and appreciate a good vintage.

I must have done my homework in a few other lives.  

Should smelly be jealous?  Well, he’d be the last to admit it.  He just hasn’t developed the taste.  Maybe in his next life, or maybe his permanently retired.  He just not a connoisseur of sausage factories, the way I am.  To each their own.  Amen, brother.  

So, now what.......?  

Hey, maybe that’s about it.  

There’s nothing left to blog.  I’ve worked myself out of a job.  I’m just taking work away from the more deserving folks.  

Hmmm.......  I don’t quite feel like retirement, just yet.  It seems like I might have a few more things to say.  

There is still a fair amount of rationalizing to do.  That’s the only thing I’m good at, if I’m good at anything.  And besides, I’m still only on my first glass.  And I’m still procrastinating on doing my laundry. Heaven forbid. I only have to get sober by 5:30, when debbie kicks me out. That reminds me that I should be calling the other debbie.........



(cont........)
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Post by hobbit on Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:51 am

Dan,

I don't fit into any fixed box description.


I do personally detect a fixed Fibonacci based system.
I do personally detect an all permeating consciousness.

That the consciousness creates all in local ANU shaped torus formations of dual spin.

I do not find any evidence or need for an overall deity, but do detect how all local torus fields are vectored towards the heart centre of the overall dominant torus field they are within ( call it gravity)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOMYdrdpMMo





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Post by hobbit on Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:07 am

https://okunomichi.wordpress.com/category/katakamuna/

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Post by Guest on Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:02 pm

Dan,

Don't drink before 5. Okay?

Was that another personality, or another person?
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Post by skaizlimit on Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:28 pm

You tried to reach me by phone, even the thought caused me to moan, perhaps even a groan. You should have been in Mexico, when it was time to go, so you would know, and then you could crow. Adios amigo.
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Post by 99 on Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:46 pm

It's gotta be the waxing moon in the 12th house opposite Uranus... I betcha that's it.
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Post by Guest on Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:22 pm

Skaiz,

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Post by dan on Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:31 pm

Skai,

I’m sorry, but Ron was supposed to have told you that I was never actually invited to go to Mexico.  

Anyway, I’m not a crow, just chicken little.... cluck, cluck.

And Ron tells me that you guys did fine in Mexico with me only there in spirit.  

Everything is going smoothly, as far as I know.

Our only problem is that we don’t have any problems.  Or is it bad luck to say that?  But I have not spoken with the Princess lately.  That’s my biggest problem.  

I don’t really know what hobbit and dd are going on about.  Sorry.

.
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Post by Guest on Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:17 pm

Well Dan,

To be honest.  No one knows quite what you were going on about in your last post.

I don't even think you knew, if you were even cognizant at the time. lol!

....

My Youtube post was to meet him at the level of his Catholicism. One can accept a lot of what you are saying, without becoming a Pantheist/Panentheist. That's all.
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Post by GSB/SSR on Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:34 am

Sometimes what comes from Dan equals the sound of one neuron firing ... :-)

But I generally agree with panentheism defined as:

The belief or doctrine that God is greater than the universe and includes and interpenetrates it.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism


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Post by dan on Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:54 am

dd,

I would definitely not try to mashup panentheism with pantheism.  

I agree with the title of the video that divine simplicity does not lead to pantheism.  

On the other hand, the prophetic tradition too frequently leads to dualism and deism.

Pantheism is simply the statement that god is in everything, not that God is everything+.  That is panentheism.  

Can we see God in a stone.....?

Well, in order to understand a stone, you must understand God.  

Pantheism, historically, derives from primitive animism.  Animism is to pantheism as polytheism is to monotheism.  

Animism is the belief that Nature is saturated with spirits of various kinds.  In that sense it is dualistic.  It is certainly not simple.  

Now, there is a version of pantheism in which God is identitified with the universe, but that is simply incoherent, in my estimation.

The notion of cosmic simplicity derives from ontological monism, which is synonymous with panentheism, in my estimation.  

I guess I was being too relaxed yesterday.  Ron can snap my out of my lethargy by being contrarian....... there is no such thing as remote viewing.  

I can attempt to rationalize that statement in some legalistic, hair splitting sense.......

Any anomalous phenomenon requires participation from the other side.  A real magician must have a genie at his disposal, for instance.  It is not sua sponte.  There must be a contrivance..... a conspiracy.... something ad hoc.  

Witchcraft requires witches..... along with their familiars.

Collective spoon bending over the tv, for instance......?

I gather that there is mind entrainment...... from the other side. Such was the phenomenon of Trump and other charismatic leaders. There is still the charismatic enthusiasm of Christianity, especially in its pentecostal variety.

The Hitler phenomenon.....? Whose idea was that? Whose bright idea?

If I’m not going to be a dualist, I have to own up to it. Nothing happens without a reason..... and I have so speculated. I’d prefer not to repeat that, now. But you get the picture.



(cont.......)


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Post by 99 on Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:47 am

dan wrote:there is no such thing as remote viewing

But there is such a thing as clairvoyance.

Remote viewing is just clairvoyance attached with a set of protocols to it that originated from Scientology "technology". Swann was, a one time, a Scientologist and developed RV based on those auditing "technologies" used in that church.

It's a westernized version of clairvoyance that's been stripped of the woo woo factor whereby rationalized as science via the implementation of 'protocols'. Quasi-science at its best.


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Post by dan on Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:50 am

99,

Okay, let me try to give Ron and me another..... bigger loophole, here......

Sentience and sapience are anomalous phenomena, in the sense that we are all walking portals of the Monad/God.  

We cannot make sentient machines.  On a case by case basis, agents of God can animate rocks, trees and machines.  

God can super animate you and me, on a case by case basis.

A clairvoyant is a super animated person. Transpersonal psychology is a transference, of some sort. There is an ad hoc, transcendental intervention.



(cont......)


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Post by Guest on Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:02 am

Dan,

Very good. I agree. Especially about the Witches.

GSB/SSR,

I prefer the traditional doctrine of divine immensity (infinity as it applies to space), over panentheism.

"Immensity... may be defined as that perfection of the Divine Being by which He transcends all spatial limitations, and yet is present in every point of space with His whole Being." - Louis Berkhof

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