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Where did all the Open Minds Forum members go?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:29 pm by Admin

With Open Minds Forum restored now for almost half a year at it's new location with forumotion.com we can now turn to look at reaching out to OMF's original members who have not yet returned home. OMF's original membership was over 6,000 members strong, prior to the proboards suspension, according to the rolls of the time. We can probably safely assume that some of those accounts were unidentified socks. If we were to assume a reasonable guess of maybe as many as 30% possible sock accounts then that would leave potentially somewhere between 4800 to 4900 possible real members to locate. That is still a substantial number of people.

Who were all these people? Some were average individuals with common interests in ufology, exopolitics, globalism, corruption, earthchanges, science and technology, and a variety of other interests. Some just enjoyed being part of a vibrant and unusually interesting community. Others were representative of various insider groups participating in observation and outreach projects, while still others were bonafide intelligence community personnel. All with stake in the hunt for truth in one fashion or another. Some in support of truth, and communication. Others seeking real disclosure and forms of proof. And others highly skeptical of anything or limited subjects. The smallest division of membership being wholly anti-disclosure oriented.

So where did these members vanish to? They had many options. There are almost innumerable other forums out there on the topics of UFO's or Exopolitics, the Unexplained, and Conspiracy Theory. Did they disappear into the world-wide network of forum inhabitants? Did some go find new homes on chatrooms or individual blogs? Did they participate in ufo conventions or other public events and gatherings? How about those who represented groups in special access? Or IC and military observers? Those with academic affiliations? Where did they all go and what would be the best way to reach out and extend an invitation to return?

And what constitutes a situation deserving of their time and participation? Is the archive enough? How exactly do people within the paradigm most desire to define a community? Is it amenities, humanity or simply population size for exposure? Most of the special guests have been emailed and have expressed that population size for exposure is what most motivates them. But not all. Long-time member Dan Smith has other priorities and values motivating his participation. Should this open opportunities for unattached junior guests who have experience and dialog to contribute to the world? How best to make use of OMF's time, experience and resources?

Many skeptics would like to see the historical guardian of discourse opportunity to just up and disappear; go into permanent stasis. They think that not everyone has a right to speak about their experiences and if there is no proof involved then there can philosophically be no value to discourse. I personally would respectfully disagree with them. Discourse has always been the prelude to meaningful relationships and meaningful mutual relationships have always been the prelude to exchanges of proof. In a contentious social environment with regards to communication vs disclosure how do we best re-establish a haven for those preludes? Is it only the "if we build it they will come" answer? Well considering OMF has been largely fully functional over the last four or five months this line of reasoning is not necessarily true. So what would be the best way re-establish this? Your suggestions are sought. Please comment.





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Immaterialism

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dan
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Immaterialism

Post by dan on Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:52 am

Ok, here we go...... as I take a deep breath.......

Well, this post will be reserved as the topical reminder.  Hopefully the discussion will last for more that one page.

(Please keep in mind the links given in the fifth post on this thread...... http://openmindsforum.forumotion.com/t313-three-in-one )

.


Last edited by dan on Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Immaterialism

Post by dan on Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:54 am

Ok, so let the discussion begin........


To my mind, immaterialism should be a no brainer.  It should be everyone’s default belief, and it has been for most of history.

It is only at the behest of science, that materialism has been afforded credibility.

By now it has become the default belief. To still embrace immaterialism is considered the hallmark of insanity.

It looks like it will be an uphill battle.......



(cont.......)
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Re: Immaterialism

Post by GSB/SSR on Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:08 am

Materialism in anomalous materials (playing the devil's advocate here :-)

https://dpo.tothestarsacademy.com/blog/dr-hal-puthoff-addresses-the-society-for-scientific-exploration


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Re: Immaterialism

Post by GSB/SSR on Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:45 am

Quantum information Trumps immaterialism?

Perhaps more shockingly, our encoding procedure can
be interpreted as non-classically influencing the past; hence this decentralized quantum blockchain
can be viewed as a quantum networked time machine.


An audacious direction of research stems from the view
that at each node, our encoding procedure can be interpreted
as influencing the past. With all such nodes connected
through quantum channels, the blockchain can be
viewed as a quantum networked time machine. On the
theoretical front, the system design may be harnessed
to invent other useful applications where the full network
collectively influences the past in non-classical ways
;
this may also lead a type of information-theoretic investigation
into the nature of time [36, 37]. Furthermore,
unlike general relativistic time machines [38–41], all the
subcomponents of this system have shown to be realizable
[22–24, 27]; this suggests the possibility to experimentally
probe time travel paradoxes through quantum
information. At the very least, this proposal would lead
to direct experimental probes of quantum causality


https://arxiv.org/pdf/1804.05979.pdf


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Re: Immaterialism

Post by dan on Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:26 am

Thank you, Gary, for the link Hal’s recent talk.  

Hal comes off as such a sober scientist.  He really ought to play one on TV........ oh, wait, he already does.  

The only scientific evidence he offers for his exotic physics is the red shift observed in stars.

Furthermore, I don’t understand how you suppose that quantum weirdness, in your next link, would subvert immaterialism.  It would more likely be the other way.  

Also, Gary, you are an experiencer. You are aware that consciousness plays a role.

Science, with all its alleged objectivity, has tried to banish subjectivity.

But once you let anything mental get it’s foot back in the door, it’s liable to take over the whole neighborhood.



(cont......)


Last edited by dan on Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Immaterialism

Post by desertdweller on Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:27 am

Willard Van Orman Quine is probably the greatest philosopher of recent memory. He knew the philosophical implications of recent advances in physics. He was forced (against his will) into immaterialism and a belief in the Logos.

Men can stare immaterialism in the face, and yet fail to see it, because of the all-encompassing belief/dogma in atoms eternally banging into each other in the back of their heads...

Reading through Puthoff's paper...
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Re: Immaterialism

Post by dan on Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:10 am

Yes, dd, WVO Quine is a hero of mine.  

Almost single handedly, in 1950, he turned the tide of materialism, from a purely philosophical perspective, by showing analytical philosophy to be indefensible.

See confirmation holism and meaning holism, among others.
...........


What seems to convince of materialism is the notion that things can exist in isolation from each other. There is self subsistence. The inorganic world is a case in point.

We suppose that the organic world emerged from the inorganic.

Can we say that a rock exists? We certainly make this assumption about other objects? If we misplace an object we don’t suppose that it has disappeared. It must be self existent.

Following Kant, we suppose that a phenomenal stone must have a noumenal, thing in itself. When we analyze a stone, we are left with atoms. Atoms have no individuality, no individual identity.


(cont.......)


Last edited by dan on Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Immaterialism

Post by ParanoidFactoid on Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:01 am

GSB/SSR wrote:Quantum information Trumps immaterialism?

[snip ABSTRACT]

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1804.05979.pdf

Another freak'n rabbit-hole. I just finished three of Suarez's papers due to the one you linked to in the previous thread.

One thing I'd like to ask Jack - and would, if I hadn't pissed him off - is, referring to his paper:

http://www.academia.edu/28568715/Bohm_Pilot_Wave_Post-Quantum_Theory_A_VERY_BRIEF_HISTORY_OF_QUANTUM_THEORY

No need for configuration space to handle entanglement. Costa de BeauregardÕs Òzig-zagsÓ allow locally realistic retrocausal field equations in four-dimensional space-time consistent with many-particle entanglement.

Bohm pilot wave theory made relativistic using a variation on AharonovÕs retrocausal weak measurements in the Lagrangian-based action principle in the block universe.

No need for a preferred global frame of reference that would violate both special and general relativity. EinsteinÕs action-reaction organizing principle formulated as part of the non-statistical post-quantum weak Lagrangian connecting the pilot wave to its beables.

POST-QUANTUM ACTION-REACTION SIGNALING

The non-statistical retrocausal post-quantum action-reaction piece of the weak Lagrangian must be set to zero in the limiting process to the statistical orthodox quantum theory with the unbiased irreducibly uncontrollably random Born rule in projective strong Von Neumann measurements. Antony Valentini has argued that a violation of the Born rule allows entanglement signaling. Steven Weinberg has given a model in which the Schrodinger equation is modified with nonlinearity, i.e., the Hamiltonian energy operator is no longer a linear Hermitian operator, therefore, and the time evolution is no longer unitary between strong Von Neumann projection operator measurements. In this case there is also entanglement signaling. Polchinski has also investigated this problem.
i
SutherlandÕs new weak measurement equations in the post-quantum case with action-reaction between strong measurements are nonlinear and nonunitary and should also allow entanglement signaling.

And later, in the concluding remarks:


Post-quantum theory is to quantum theory as general relativity is to special relativity.

Both larger theories are direct consequences of Einstein action-reaction organizing principle.

Special relativity ignores the direct reaction of matter on geometry.

Quantum theory ignores the direct reaction of matter and geometry on their pilot waves.

Now, not to ask a stupid question... but... is he saying there's a relationship between the geometry distortion of time dilation in GR across inertial frames A and B, and a retrocausal signal between points A and B along the time-line trajectory of a particle due to backaction along its pilot wave? And if so, is there a proportionality between the two - even if nonlinear?

Sorry Dan, I'll get out of your hair now.
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Re: Immaterialism

Post by 99 on Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:18 am

back to 'immaterialism 101.....

Wrt Confirmation holism:
In the epistemology of science, confirmation holism, also called epistemological holism, is the view that no individual statement can be confirmed or disconfirmed by an empirical test, but only a set of statements (a whole theory). wiki

But how can one perform an empirical test that can be confirmed only by a set of statements (whole story), if it's the case where there's no physical object to conduct an empirical test on to begin with? Where all that is perceived is some kind of anomalous phenomena? (oh, wait.... no empirical test needed as only a set of statements is needed for confirmation.. ok, got it)

Do they have to somehow change those phenomena into an object before they assess it on an empirical basis which is then confirmed by a set of statements? (please refer to my last statement in parenthesis)

But then again, if one holds immaterialism as their worldview, then everything, physical or non-physical is inclusive within the 'whole story' anyway? (note to self: it's analytical philosophy we're talking about here 99)

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Re: Immaterialism

Post by hobbit on Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:50 am

As a dowser, that operates in the immaterial realms.

Nobody believes me, because they are believers in the material world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3fSUE60qRY







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Re: Immaterialism

Post by jofo on Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:40 am

hobbit wrote:As a dowser, that operates in the immaterial realms.

Nobody believes me, because they are believers in the material world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3fSUE60qRY







hobbit

hobbit,

is it possible that your dowsing is the result of the material world, a force you/we don't fully understand, but well within the realm of the material?

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Re: Immaterialism

Post by hobbit on Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:57 am

jofo wrote:
hobbit wrote:As a dowser, that operates in the immaterial realms.

Nobody believes me, because they are believers in the material world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3fSUE60qRY







hobbit

hobbit,

is it possible that your dowsing is the result of the material world, a force you/we don't fully understand, but well within the realm of the material?  

Nope.

Memory is what it is all about.

This planets memory is the physical at rest memory, every independent memory has free will within that memory until it dies, then it becomes part of this planets memory.


This planet is within larger memories, with the overall memory been called god.


The planet, and Your physical are in 3D.

But there are multiple dimensions within and outside of you.

The dowser attunes across dimensions, to the immaterial world

Or better said to alternate dimensions where consciousness faces no resistance, it makes 3D physical, thus it interacts with and maintains the memory of 3D.
Thus 3D can and does have an effect ( thus why huge stones were utilised) to locally divert and accumulate the duality of spin of consciousness that enables 3D.


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Re: Immaterialism

Post by dan on Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:13 pm

PF,

Yes, Jack is Bohmian.  Bohm, in turn, was an Einsteinian.  The were both objectivists, early in their lives, attempting remove the spookiness from quantum physics.  They both gave up the battle.  Jack carries it on.  

Jack tries to explain mind from the quantum.  I believe it goes the other way.  The quantum is a symptom of the mind.


hobbit,

Yes, I like the idea that the Earth is the repository of our collective memory.


dd,

A technology that destroys materialism.......?

Portals are such a ‘technology’.

The technology in question has more to do with technique and with the relationalism that I was attempting to explain above. In particular, we are concerned with our relation to the hive and our denizens, thereof...... princesses, cheetahs and the like.




(cont.......)


Last edited by dan on Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:42 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Immaterialism

Post by desertdweller on Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:20 pm

I have some thoughts on the relationship of technology to materialism. A technology that destroys materialism would cause a paradigm shift overnight...

(Cont...)
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Re: Immaterialism

Post by 99 on Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:38 pm

Technology operates via mathematical laws. So any obliteration of materialism via technology would only be an illusion because the math would still remain.... Mathematical laws are the foundational components of materialism.

Question: Is mathematics independent of cosmic consciousness?


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Re: Immaterialism

Post by desertdweller on Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:56 pm

99,

That’s funny. Mathematical laws are material? Can you tell me their location? What is their shape, weight, physical dimensions?

Can you give me any material attributes to mathematical laws?

If mathematical laws are the foundation of materialism, than careful thinking must conclude that immaterial entities and the foundation of supposed material entities.
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Re: Immaterialism

Post by 99 on Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:59 pm

Lol, well hopefully Dan might touch on that topic. Once again, is mathematics independent of cosmic consciousness?

What role does mathematics play in immaterialism anyway?

----------------------
Portals fall under etheric technology, right?


Last edited by 99 on Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Immaterialism

Post by hobbit on Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:03 pm

"Collective memory"

Collared doves have recently hatched and now flown away from our barn wall.
They radioed out into the non material consciousness memory for the information of been a collared dove.

As that memory varies relative to inputs, so do the new doves.

Billions of humans are doing this now, it needs a certain percentage to alter the resultant return signals.

But the earth is only a small cog in a vast memory exchange system ( Birkeland currents)

And as the cogs are turning, thus the inputs vary.


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Re: Immaterialism

Post by hobbit on Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:12 pm

99 wrote:Lol, well hopefully Dan might touch on that topic. Once again, is mathematics independent of cosmic consciousness?

What role does mathematics play in immaterialism anyway?


Geometry and measure are detectable outside of the material, and the physical has been fitted to this ( pyramids and later churches)

It takes vast amounts of consciousness to enable creation and to then maintain it.
Gravity is a consequence of this creation and maintenance of.

Nuclear so called explosion is the destruction of creation, the reversal of and release of consciousness.

Then any physical material subjected to this will try to take any available consciousness to revert to the rest condition within the dominant memory, this is wrongly then called radiation, when it should be called the irridation of memory.
Thus Your flesh will FORGET.


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Re: Immaterialism

Post by desertdweller on Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:15 pm

99,

Mathematics is conceptual/abstract in nature. By definition it cannot be mind independent. Even materialism itself is conceptual/abstract in nature, and cannot exist apart from a mind. That in itself reduces materialism to absurdity.
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Re: Immaterialism

Post by 99 on Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:20 pm

Thanks dd. Makes sense.

Anyway, while you were typing that out, I did a lookup on Is zero nothing?

A vacuum is a void. It is devoid of anything but still it is something. It has zero length and breadth so it has a value equal to zero, but it is not nothing. It has its own characteristics and properties much like the integer zero.
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Re: Immaterialism

Post by 99 on Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:24 pm

Hobbit... that's fascinating... will chew on that for awhile.

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Re: Immaterialism

Post by hobbit on Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:39 pm

https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/montauk/esp_filadelfia_10.htm

In Philadelphia welding booths, things began to vanish.

The material spanners and tools vanished as huge capacitors released tremendous voltages.


Then had not transmuted into another material, they had vanished, or try to consider that they forgot.


They forgot to be , or not to be in this memory field.

The question is ...where did they go?

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Re: Immaterialism

Post by dan on Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:52 pm

99, dd and hobbit,

Outside of ourselves we attempt to observe, measure and identity things with the help of mathematics.  

It is said that mathematics is the language of nature.  If it is, we are the only ones listening.  Does nature talk to itself? I doubt it.  

No point in objectifying, if we can’t identify.  This is the rub.  We are the only identifiers.  

I agree that mathematics is mind independent. There are Platonists who suppose otherwise, but they appeal to a cosmic mind or Platonic heaven.

Mathematics could be seen as just another form of memory, certainly a mnemonic device.


(cont........)


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Re: Immaterialism

Post by desertdweller on Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:59 pm

CS Lewis said that it was technology, more than anything, that has convinced men of materialism. I would also argue it’s why even religious people are plagued by doubts in the modern world - or why materialism haunts them as a possible alternative option.

Lewis said that ancient cultures, who had minimal control over their environments, assumed that the universe had a metaphysical/ideal order which one must conform too. This made men “religious” or “idealists” in the broad sense of the word. Technology and an increase of control over the environment subconsciously feeds into the idea that the universe is aimless/unconscious, until men grant it direction and purpose with their material technology. This makes men think like magicians/occultists. Lewis pointed to the connection between the enlightenment and occultism.

Technology acts like a sacrament that brings the philosophy of materialism from the realm of metaphysics, into the realm of tangible experience.

What if we had a technology that brought immaterialism from the realm of metaphysics into the realm of the tangible?

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