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Where did all the Open Minds Forum members go?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:29 pm by Admin

With Open Minds Forum restored now for almost half a year at it's new location with forumotion.com we can now turn to look at reaching out to OMF's original members who have not yet returned home. OMF's original membership was over 6,000 members strong, prior to the proboards suspension, according to the rolls of the time. We can probably safely assume that some of those accounts were unidentified socks. If we were to assume a reasonable guess of maybe as many as 30% possible sock accounts then that would leave potentially somewhere between 4800 to 4900 possible real members to locate. That is still a substantial number of people.

Who were all these people? Some were average individuals with common interests in ufology, exopolitics, globalism, corruption, earthchanges, science and technology, and a variety of other interests. Some just enjoyed being part of a vibrant and unusually interesting community. Others were representative of various insider groups participating in observation and outreach projects, while still others were bonafide intelligence community personnel. All with stake in the hunt for truth in one fashion or another. Some in support of truth, and communication. Others seeking real disclosure and forms of proof. And others highly skeptical of anything or limited subjects. The smallest division of membership being wholly anti-disclosure oriented.

So where did these members vanish to? They had many options. There are almost innumerable other forums out there on the topics of UFO's or Exopolitics, the Unexplained, and Conspiracy Theory. Did they disappear into the world-wide network of forum inhabitants? Did some go find new homes on chatrooms or individual blogs? Did they participate in ufo conventions or other public events and gatherings? How about those who represented groups in special access? Or IC and military observers? Those with academic affiliations? Where did they all go and what would be the best way to reach out and extend an invitation to return?

And what constitutes a situation deserving of their time and participation? Is the archive enough? How exactly do people within the paradigm most desire to define a community? Is it amenities, humanity or simply population size for exposure? Most of the special guests have been emailed and have expressed that population size for exposure is what most motivates them. But not all. Long-time member Dan Smith has other priorities and values motivating his participation. Should this open opportunities for unattached junior guests who have experience and dialog to contribute to the world? How best to make use of OMF's time, experience and resources?

Many skeptics would like to see the historical guardian of discourse opportunity to just up and disappear; go into permanent stasis. They think that not everyone has a right to speak about their experiences and if there is no proof involved then there can philosophically be no value to discourse. I personally would respectfully disagree with them. Discourse has always been the prelude to meaningful relationships and meaningful mutual relationships have always been the prelude to exchanges of proof. In a contentious social environment with regards to communication vs disclosure how do we best re-establish a haven for those preludes? Is it only the "if we build it they will come" answer? Well considering OMF has been largely fully functional over the last four or five months this line of reasoning is not necessarily true. So what would be the best way re-establish this? Your suggestions are sought. Please comment.





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Persons within the substance of love.

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dan
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Persons within the substance of love.

Post by dan on Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:25 am

First topic message reminder :

(‘first topic message reminder.......’)

Once again, I attempt to bring the conversation back to Personalism......

Disclosure is simply going to underscore the infinite worth and potential of every sapient creature, ie, person.  Anything other than that is simply false.
...........


(Please keep in mind the links given in the fifth post on this thread......

http://openmindsforum.forumotion.com/t313-three-in-one )



Last edited by dan on Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by 99 on Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:22 am

Dan wrote:There are other perspectives on lives. One is the life review aspect of NDEs, as often reported.


Which, to the inquiring mind, should inspire us to wonder why are we subjected to a life review as we are transiting from this realm to the next in the first place?

To me, it drills in the point expressed in Romans 2:6-7

For [God] will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life...

But the next question is, how can we be judged by our actions and thoughts when everything is predetermined anyways? So how can we be held responsible for actions and thoughts that, in reality, are not our own, but God's?

Are we nothing but marionette's given a script to act out in a play that's long since been written and engraved in granite where deviating from that script is not even an option?
----------------------

Talk about cosmic jokes... that one takes the cake!


Last edited by 99 on Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:26 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by murnut on Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:05 am

99 makes a compelling argument.

But is human freewill ( or the illusion of such)...

Is human freewill able to change God's will?

Could Jesus say no to the cross?

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by murnut on Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:07 am

Regarding nde...

My heart stopped for 20 minutes on June 29th 2013 suddenly...

There was no life review

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by 99 on Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:36 am

Then that sort of negates the explanation that NDE's are the result of a bio-chemical changes in our brain at death.

If that were true then anyone who ends up clinically dead but then comes back to life would all be reporting NDE's but that's not happening.

So  this means that NDE's are not the result of bio-chemical changes in the death process but instead is something much more than that... it's a spiritual intervention.

Mur... you didn't have an NDE because it simply was not your time yet...

Those who DO have a NDE but then come back to life, have one because it was determined by tPtB on the other side that, for whatever reason, they needed to have that experience at that time.

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by murnut on Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:50 am

True...I was revived thanks to a emt and aed.

I just thought I'd mention there was no light...no flashback or rewind.

I did have a dream of sorts but it's hard to say when the dream occurred because I was in a coma for 5 days...

I was just looking at a house... It was probably the last thing I saw before I past out.

The dream had no motion and I had no body.

As I was dreaming I noticed the dream was different than other dreams...no motion.

I could not turn my gaze away from the house...

I felt like I stared at it for days...

When I finally awoke in the hospital... I could not believe what had happened.

I never had any pain.

With sudden cardiac arrest you just pass out

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by 99 on Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:10 am

Wow! It's AMAZING that you survived that! Thanks for filling us in more on what happened during that time. Maybe you might want to sketch out the house you saw or write down any details of it that you can remember including any insights you have on why you saw something like that. Then keep that info in a safe place to refer back to it again whenever you feel the need to do so.
---------------------------

My thoughts on the house... maybe it was meant to convey to you that you were 'going home'. But then 'they' decided it was not your time yet but they did, nevertheless give you a nice comforting image to focus on during that ordeal. Smile

Here's a project for you:
Design your dream house and its surroundings. If you can't sketch it out it out yourself, have someone do that for you based on your vision of it. Include as much detail as you possibly can. Have someone create a painting of your house and hang it up on a wall somewhere. Smile



Last edited by 99 on Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by dan on Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:19 am

99,

This is one reason why I am not a biblical inerrantist.  But even literalists do not promote works over faith.  The passage you quote is exceptional, in that regard.  

Rewards and punishments are as much a part of the predestination as any other parts of the system.  

Is life unfair......?  

Examining any particular part of the world or history will uncover sub-optimality.  We do not see existence in its entirety...... not yet.  Feel free to complain, but also be open to the future and to a larger picture.


Last edited by dan on Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:25 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by murnut on Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:24 am

I see the house everytime I go surfing...it's a real house.

Yeah the EMTs arrived in 2 minutes from the 911 call.. I'm very lucky it happened where it did.

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by murnut on Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:34 am

Sorry dan

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by 99 on Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:36 am

Dan, I'm open to alternative interpretations on this topic. That's why I'm here and am very much a seeker in search for the 'larger picture'. But I'm a cultural Catholic and I subscribe to the view that Faith without works renders Faith meaningless. That will never change.

Matthew 12:36-37

I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned. ~ saith, Jesus.

And then there is Grace....

I'm a seeker. Smile

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by whoknows on Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:14 am

Dan wrote:In my estimation, free will comes in with our thoughts and imaginations, but not in our actions, which are, indeed, predetermined.

I don't think so much predetermined as we are just too easy to predict. The Monad has perfect situational awareness

Dan wrote:There is considerable determinism built into the BPWH.  I’m merely suggesting ways to minimize that determinism from the perspective of the individual by allowing for the exchange of trajectories.


OF all the possible path I have had to chose from, I have chosen them all. We all have. That my friends is free will, and the timelessness we will become aware of. This is the Love I trust in, this is why self esteem is so vital to understand.

When all is said and done we will want the very best possible, not only for our selves but every one else. Everything.

As to nde, within the infinite, I have died many times B&T. My awareness just shifted from death to injury to wow that was scary. Each an individually perceived reality.


Last edited by whoknows on Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:30 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by whoknows on Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:25 am

99 wrote:I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned. ~ saith, Jesus.

And then there is Grace....

If I may speculate 99.
We are our own arbiters. We are at this very moment. "Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:10) Grace is love dwell in that.

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by 99 on Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:35 am

Can't disagree with that WK! Thanks for your input.
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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by desertdweller on Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:43 am

desertdweller wrote:Dan,

I agree that much of our differences may be semantic in nature.  We may both be referring to the same ideas, but using a different lexicon in describing those ideas.  However, I do think that semantics are important, as our use of words in describing concepts, either clarify our ideas, or obscure them.

When it comes to the BPW and the free will of God, this is related to the question that physicists often ask in light of the anthropic principle.  That is, could God have created the universe with a different set of laws, and still accommodate life?

I contend that these questions are next to impossible to answer, simply because we are not God.  To use a point you made earlier, could God have created a world where I didn’t see my neighbor kick his dog, and achieve the same purposes in my life that occurred in that moment?  I would say it’s hard to say no to that question.

Nevertheless...

(Cont...)

Dan,

To continue this, while I believe that Creation is an act of divine will/choice, nevertheless, this will/choice is transcendent.  In other words, it isn't like human/finite choices.  Normally, we think of free-will/choice as resulting in temporal deliberation and uncertainty - then at a certain moment we "decide."  

However, since God is timeless and eternal, it doesn't work this way.  His decree related to creation, predestination, and providence is as eternal as He is.  It reflects His nature and attributes (what God is), as well as the economic order of the Trinity (who God is); however, it is distinguished as a category (what God does).  

Though this is hard for us to conceptualize. I find it to be necessary, because if the weather today is not a result of divine decree, then it is essential to God.  Moreover, it then becomes a part of God, which destroys divine simplicity.  

God is then made of constituent parts, and those parts are more basic (or more "God), then He is.  Then the universe requires no explanation beyond itself, and we are left with atheism.  Atheism is the photo negative of pantheism.  We both agree there are major philosophical/epistemological problems with such an idea.

What then of gratitude?  "Thanks God for doing what you had to do."  No give and take, and there's no personalism.  Again, creation swallows up the Creator and becomes impersonal.

While we may seem worlds apart in this, I do think that much of this is clarified by recognizing the semantic differences.  Though I believe creation is a result of divine freedom, I also believe in the faithfulness of God.  The prophets and the psalmist consistently draws our attention to the faithfulness of God; He will do what He has said He will do.  God determined to create the BPW eternally, therefore, in that sense He had to create it.

When it comes to God's multiple personality "disorder," I see more a multiple personality "order."  Just as God is eternal one-and-many, He created us at a lower level of reality ,as "many," in order to eschatologically become "one" with Him (and with each other), through a process of sanctification.  

We don't suffer from an "illusion" of division so much, because we are indeed many, but we suffer from the "delusion" of sin and egoism.  The eschatology of history is largely aimed undoing this malady, and to return history to ever increasing orders of oneness and enjoyment of the divine being.

What do you think are the social/psychological ramifications of what it will "look like" when this happens?

99,

When it comes to predestination, keep in mind that while Roman Catholicism does not popularly teach the doctrine, it is rooted in their history.  Augustine and Aquinas were strong on this issue.  The Confessional Document of my Church (Presbyterianism) has an explanation of Predestination rooted in Aquinas, that might be helpful to you.  This is what we call predestination/compatibilism.  WK is on the right track when he says we are "easy to predict"...

"God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]" Westminster Confession of Faith 3:1


Last edited by desertdweller on Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by 99 on Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:10 am

Thanks DD. Will research on that. Interesting... thanks for the feedback. Very important topic. Smile
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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by dan on Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:35 pm

dd,

If time is an illusion, then so is free will, in as much as it is played out in time.  

But personhood is about morality. But what is morality other than a form of aesthetics and integrity?

Integrity is about coherence, unity and monism.  We come from the Source..... we all return to the same Source.  

In this sojourn we experience every possible life.  

If God is pure light, we are the colors of that light.  We explore the light and the dark.  That is our job.  We explore the good and the evil.  

God is the definition of completion.  Where is the free will in completion?  

This is not an experiment.

Otherwise, dd, you are retreating to your old formulas. I cannot help you with your formulas.  

Remain with your illusions, as long as they comfort you.  

Just know that you are one with God. There is no separation, beyond your illusions thereof.  

In our return to our Source, our infinity of infinities coalesce into a singular singularity.  When you experience that, then you are welcome to come back here and complain.  

Separation is your comfort for now.  Life is separation.  The trip back is half the fun.  Enjoy!  


I pray to God frequently...... I ask the Lord to help me. I find nothing impersonal or paradoxical in that request. It is comforting. My simple request unites me with all persons who ever existed..... especially with Jesus.


(cont......)


Last edited by dan on Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by Nunia.binus on Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:38 pm

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/could-multiple-personality-disorder-explain-life-the-universe-and-everything/
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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by smelly on Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:24 pm

God is what is allowing you to read this and write.

Your sensations are dancing in Awareness.

You know what Awareness is?

ummm hmmm

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by dan on Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:52 pm

Nunia,  

Thanks.  Kastrup may not be so dumb, after all.
............


9am.......

Bernardo has nothing to say about eschatology. A slight oversight.


(cont......)
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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by ScaRZ on Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:45 am

I do not believe "Everything" is predestined.

If we humans are predestined to a so called love......."Then there is no true love." Without freely given and freely received that is not love.

Without "Free Will" there is no love. Anything that is forced is not love. If I created something and programmed it to say the words......"I love you",or act out,touch me,or look at me in a certain way......."Is this love?"..........."I say again,without free will there is no love."

You can never force someone to love you,and anyone who attempts force,does not carry with them love.

God would not be love. God would be an adversary of love. There is a great gulf fixed between the two.

I do not believe evil is predestinated,I believe it arises out of human or non-human freedom.

Certainly I believe God knew evil would arise out of freedom. But to have creation that truly loves God then free will was no other option for God.

If God is indeed love then his "Imagers" must choose to love and in fact become love as is God.

Humans gained the knowledge of knowing good and evil. But knowing of good does not force you to do good. The very same thing goes for evil........"We choose doing evil, we are never forced into evil acts." We choose rebellion,we are never forced into rebellion.

I believe to reach the ultimate penthouse it will come down for free will creation to know of good and evil but will always choose good over evil.
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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by dan on Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:06 am

Scarz,

I understand that the notion of free will is a foundational issue.......

Are we just puppets of the Monad?  And even the Monad may have no freedom.  Are we back to Newtonian mechanism?  

All of this is true if time is an illusion, which it almost certainly is.  

This is just the principle of sufficient reason (PSR), or the principle of maximal action, if you will, straight out of quantum physics.  

What then is personhood, without freedom....?

But I would counter this with the notion of teleology.

Theologians have argued these points, forever.  

How can we have freedom, if God is omniscient?  

Who says God cannot know our ‘free’ choices in advance?  

Is that a paradox?  Maybe it’s not Scarz.  At the least, it is an open question on the minds of the most thoughtful.  

All this ends up being a technical or academic question.  

Is love a free choice or a tender trap?  I would not bet the farm either way.  But I will bet the farm that this is the best of all possible worlds.  

Does any of this impact the infinite worth of persons...... the infinite potential of persons...... a potential that we are predestined to realize?  

Next question........?
...........


11:40.........

In the meantime, there is radio silence out of Virginia.  

Whither Disclosure?  Whither the rollout by the Lake?  

Will R&A put their foot down on Disclosure....... as if that were possible?  

I was never wild about the goings on, down by the Lake.  I was simply going to stay out of the way.  

I was not wild about Ebola, either.  I would easily place my body in front of that very dumb idea.  Fisticuffs, anyone?  
..........


Bernardo Kastrup may be the main public proponent of immaterialism.  I have to hand it to him.  But ignoring its eschatological/theological implications, is no small lacuna.  Maybe, unlike chicken little, he’s simply too modest/timid to embrace those implications...... after you, Alphonse.......  

Well, whatever you say, Bernardo.  

Do we have any other pending business..... besides Disclosure?


At a slow time, I can always refer folks back to the summary post on the previous thread........

http://openmindsforum.forumotion.com/t313-three-in-one  

It was the fifth post in that thread.  It provides links back to my earlier sites and indexes....... not to mention, back to the mnemonic.  Such a link needs to be given in the ‘topic reminder’ post, also, when I remember.  


Perhaps the message from the world of Disclosure is that we don’t need capital ‘D’ Disclosure.  We are doing ok with the WoM/MoAPS, thank you very much..... word of mouth/mother of all paradigm shifts.  

I’ve always touted that option...... whatever can cause the least discombobulation....... whatever can keep us ahead of a negative social meltdown....... whatever can keep us ahead of financial panic.  

Certainly, Bernardo is doing his part. How many other Bernardo’s may be out there?


(cont......)

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by whoknows on Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:13 am

Dan wrote:All this ends up being a technical or academic question.

Is love a free choice or a tender trap? I would not bet the farm either way. But I will bet the farm that this is the best of all possible worlds.

Does any of this impact the infinite worth of persons...... the infinite potential of persons...... a potential that we are predestined to realize?

Next question........?

Thing is it seems we are not using our wills to chose the tender trap; at least at this point.

For me it has been through free will that I have chosen to actuate Love, in, and through my life. (Note to self must work on that; time to drop the stone silly caryatid!) Self esteem is a very hard thing to know and impossible to actuate in ones self. It has to come from the source, otherwise it will just be imagery. No? It is a choice. some seem reticent in putting off choosing. That is the Illusion I suppose; that most tender of traps.

It gets even harder when you look out and see the world as it is as apposed to how it could or should be.

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by murnut on Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:55 am

Living outside of time...

You already know everything that happens.

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by hobbit on Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:05 am

"Substance of love"

How can anyone create such a thread without offering any description of love?

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by dan on Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:08 am

wk,

We’ve already all agreed on the Telos, ie..... what song will the fat lady sing, when will it be sung.  

The ultimate tender trap is the big attractor in the sky, ie.... the monadic Source.  

Are you really going to fight City Hall on that one?  Everything else is just a warmup for the big Finale.

If I were you, wk, I wouldn’t waste too much time second guessing the Source.  

Well, if truth be told...... that’s all I’ve ever done.  I can’t think of any better waste of time.  


hobbit,

Define love..........?

Hey, hobbit, I love strawberry ice cream....... yummy.  

Or, how about this one........
I've looked at clouds from both sides now
From up and down and still somehow
It's cloud's illusions I recall
I really don't know clouds at all

In many languages there is not even a word for love.  What do we make of that?  

Love is the only glue that holds the world together. Physicists used to think that it was just space and time. Now, they have no clue.


(cont......)

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