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Persons within the substance of love.

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dan
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Persons within the substance of love.

Post by dan on Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:25 am

(‘first topic message reminder.......’)

Once again, I attempt to bring the conversation back to Personalism......

Disclosure is simply going to underscore the infinite worth and potential of every sapient creature, ie, person.  Anything other than that is simply false.
...........


(Please keep in mind the links given in the fifth post on this thread......

http://openmindsforum.forumotion.com/t313-three-in-one )



Last edited by dan on Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by dan on Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:29 am



You will note that the topic has been modified.  

Am I no longer professing trinitarianism?

I’m just being a tad more subtle about it..... less presuppositional about it, if you will.

How then might trinitarianism come about......?

It will come about mainly historically.  We shall see......  

The first hurdle, here, is feminism or Matriarchy vs Patriarchy......

I acknowledge that, historically, matriarchy has precedence over patriarchy, and that patriarchy has come with tremendous social costs.  

But I am speaking of the prophetic tradition when I invoke history.  

And in that regard, I invoke Joachim da Fiore, with his three stages of prophetic history....... the ages of the father, son and spirit.  

I claim of myself, spontaneously/idiosyncratically, to be the minimally incarnate spirit...... minimal with regard to the completion of prophetic history.  

This claim will stand only in hindsight, resting squarely upon the reality of the MoAPS..... our final turn to personalism.  

Is there any competition here?  There seems not to be.  

Is this a surprise?  No, it’s just a setup.  And I’m the expert........ a former drip under pressure.  

The proximate trigger for the MoAPS portends to be the rollout at the Lake, with all its glorious ambiguity.  But trust me, there’ll be nothing ambiguous about Joe, along with the glorious incoherence of his physics and metaphysics...... bless his heart.  


6..........

Of course, the rollout by the Lake is not guaranteed.  It might even correlate with my not being in the good graces of the Princess.  Without ‘TLA3’, next up could be TSA2, due out sometime this summer..... it being a bit more emphatic than its progenitor, TSA1.  

Behind either of those contingencies is simply the notion that we proceed on borrowed time, and the appearance of more portal type phenomena, in general.  

If atomism loses its grip on our imaginations, personalism becomes a virtual no-brainer.  Would that be enough for the heavens to implode?  

If portals there be, it would be enough to accelerate their proliferation.  

The high water mark of scientific materialism was in the vicinity of 1950.  Analytic reductionism has been in gradual retreat, since, joining the centuries long decline in religion.  Both being supplanted by an inchoate postmodernism.  

The center is not holding, philosophically or politically.  

Who knows the tipping point for portals?  If it is anywhere, it is buried deep within our psyches.  It is written in the stars.  

There could, of course, be an honest to goodness Tribulation...... so much for the BPWH.  Such a development would conform to fundamentalist expectations, and to the pall of intellectual foreboding.  

Would personalism go down with our ship?   Personalism will be around, so long as there are persons.  Fear of God, though, would return with a vengeance that we could wreak upon ourselves.  

Our knot of fear would open a portal in its own image.  

All things are possible.  It might be possible to reconfigure the Holocaust so as to squeeze it into the best possible world.  Why not reconfigure the global meltdown of civilization?   Some poor soul might have to take on that task in the future.  It won’t be me, thank the lord.  


(cont.......)
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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by desertdweller on Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:44 pm

So, as a physicist, are you saying that the very nature of portals dismantles the atomist/materialist paradigm, and reveals consciousness/percepts to be at the base of reality?

Are you saying Leibniz’s monadology will be empirically verified?

What do you think of the works of George Berkeley pertaining to personalism and the MOaPS?
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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by dan on Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:45 pm

Yes, I do.  

Leibniz was not a personalist.  Berkeley did better.

Folks are turning to personalism.  It’s the only thing that makes any sense..... anymore.  

Personalism is the only light..... in the Darkness that is descending.  

Folks are not as dumb as we often seem.  

You can fool all of us, some of the time.....  

Leibniz believed in persons, but he also believed in sub-personal monads.  I don’t believe in such monads any more than I believe in will o’ the wisp.  I do believe, however, in the ‘unreasonable’ effectiveness of mathematics.  

Berkeley was an inter-subjective idealist, which was tantamount to personalism.  Kant and Hegel sure managed to screw that up.  Marx may simply go to hell.  Hegel’s path to Hell was paved with his own screwed up absolutist arrogance.  

Eastern philosophy is nearly devoid of personalism.  What little they have has been borrowed from the West.

Greek philosophers had an inkling of personhood.  Jesus......?  Well, he nailed it.  

Christians have tried to take that from him by deifying him.  He defined personhood for all of history.  He deified us.  That is the irony of all of history.  

He defined personhood in its only proper historical context..... namely an eschatological/transcendental context.  

Intellectuals resist the Eschaton, by all means.  Me?  Well, I eschew their obfuscation.  I refuse to immanentize the Eschaton.  

We shall transcend.  Persons are necessarily transcendental beings.  Get over it.  Get used to it.  It’s our singular shared destiny.  

We come from the Source.  We return to the Source.  Nothing will stand in that Way.  Not even a Princess.  

.

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by Just wandering on Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:38 am

Hmmm. Not sure how to answer that simply because I don't know the answer. Too many variables

Dan.

I think Jesus was just a man and that you are right, he was deified. But there is something very

special about him, and he exudes love.

I knew very little when I was a child, but I worked out very early that religion was not good. I could

not understand why there was a need for a middle man. I did not believe in the existence of Christ for

a good while either as I did not think a loving God that he represented would create a world in which

it was not possible to exist without harming another sentient. That is still a sticking point with me.

However, as a child I did work out that if Christ and God did exist, the existence would be in the

hearts of humans. In the divine spark that we each have. The choice we have is the free will to make

between good and evil, if only we can see which path is which, clearly.

I had a vivid lucid dream where I was under psychic attack, used the name of Jesus as protection by instinct in this dream although had not given it a thought previously and the attack vanished. The next night I had a beautiful dream of dozens of people singing to me and they were all Jesus saying to lean on him and to call on him anytime for help. The message was that he is the spark of the divine in all people that choose to good and be non selfish. But he was also there if I needed someone to lean on. It was powerfully beautiful. And very real.The bad guys can't fake that.

I have also had a friend tell me the mention of his name makes orbs beat it when they come into her room late at night.

I don't have a problem with the possibility of him existing in human form right now as Lyn Buchanan saw him years back when he did a blind remote viewing. Lyn said that the man he remote viewed was of no threat and was a very good person. He was even aware of and turned and smiled at Lyn in the direction from where he was remote viewing into the room where Jesus was sitting. Sounds a bit cray cray, but hey, take a look around.

Not sure about this ascension business, a few things holding us back. Like maybe a fence.

Can you elaborate on the Princess side of things?  Thanks.
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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by desertdweller on Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:56 am

Dan,

To keep control of this conversation, may I recommend what you suggested at the beginning of the last thread? Let's run this like a presbytery meeting (i.e. a meeting of the elders). You are the moderator, and all discussion must be directed towards you. A discussion between participants must be through you. So if you have something you want to say to someone else, you speak to Dan and refer to the other person in third person/by their name... Good idea?
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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by dan on Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:32 am

Thank you, JW,

for your thoughtful post.  We seem to agree on most things.  

But when you say Jesus was ‘just’ a man, I think you may not quite be catching the drift of my remarks......

There is an infinite divine potential within each and every one of us...... a potential nature that can be nurtured to whatever extent..... even by our angels.... but also by our demons, if we don’t take care.  


dd,

I would agree, as to protocol.   Side conversations go off the rails, much too easily, even for the best intended of us.  We have more than enough to talk about with personalism and the ‘disclosure’ thereof.  This covers all of reality and all of history.  

Perhaps the easiest way to get a handle on personalism is to think of Creation as existing within the mind of the Creator.  We, then, are God’s multiple personality ‘disorder’.  Our mission, if we choose to accept it, is simply to pull ourselves together.  

Most unthinking, unconscious Christians are led to suppose that Creation is just by the whim of God.  This presupposition is at the root of most evil, an evil fostered by self-appointed authorities, for their deliberate manipulation of the rest of us.  But even most ‘authorities’ have not experienced an original thought within their lifetimes.  

News flash........ Creation is the absolute essence of the Creator. Each of us is the essence of our Creator. Creation is not a game, sports fans. We are the center ring of the big top, of the only show in town.

When you see a person kick a stray dog, all of eternity was just a setup for you to witness that one act..... be not oblivious. Every hair on your head is numbered, my friend.




(cont.......)

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by whoknows on Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:26 am

Dan, In one of your earlier post you focused on cohesion, well, what about continuity.

That is one reason I go on about the banach-Tarski Paradox. I posit that we have to be infinite, yet subjectively experientialy. With infinite potential that will coalesce at some point.    

To paraphrase Ian Anderson.

"Life is an eternal song, but this tune ends to soon for a song."

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by Just wandering on Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:54 am

Dan,

No, I caught your drift, I wrote the same.

And no, I am not oblivious to those threats.

What worries me is when folk can't tell what is what.
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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by dan on Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:07 pm

wk,

Mathematics is very important in the structuring of reality.  If B&T speak to Monadic coalescence, I’m all for them.


JW,

Every picogram of our ignorance is part of the Plan. Didn’t you know?



(cont.......)

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by whoknows on Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:40 pm

Well, to my mind there is no way to separate our selves from the Monad, I have always agreed with that. I don't know what B&T were thinking but it sure fits what I'm contemplating.

My thought on coalescence is as far as B&T is concerned just an expedience. I mean how tedious would it be for all 108 billion (over 200,000 years) HS to live and infinite number of lives sequentially rather than concurrently. Not that time has anything to do with it, just seems to me a more efficient/conservation of (Monad stuff) I don't know what you would call it (but it sure is everywhere we look) Time/space?

Just throwing stuff out there and trying to stay on topic. Sorry just getting bored though serious nevertheless.
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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by 99 on Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:54 pm

Dan wrote:Our knot of fear would open a portal in its own image.

A very profound statement and so true.
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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by dan on Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:55 pm

wk,

Yes, you are correct that B&T point to the paradox of how the Monad is divisible into all of us without suffering diminishment in the process.  And its singular simplicity is undisturbed.  That one paradox contains the many paradoxes of love.  Nor is anything lost in us, in our return to Source.  Is it unbelievable?  I don’t find it so, not amongst all the wonders of normal existence.
.............


8:50........

On an earlier thread someone asked about the opening of portals in the Endtimes.

There was the suggestion that significant ones, presumably negative, would be opened through our fear and ignorance. And I have just spoken about a knot of fear as possibly opening a portal.


(cont.......)
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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by desertdweller on Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:28 pm

Dan,

I agree with your hard predestinarian views.  Indeed, everything we experience has been ordained, for the glory of God and our good.  Suffering and evil are included in this.  And as you, yourself have alluded to before; the good news is that suffering and evil are temporary privations of good, while goodness and love are infinite.

However, I will hold fast to Creation being an act of the will of God.  Creation moves from Potentiality to Actuality, whereas God is pure Act/Actuality.  Therefore, creation is a result of God's act-ion, not of His nature.  The eternal generation of the Son, and the spiration of the Spirit, are His inner, natural works.  

However, while creation is not a result of divine nature, but divine will; it is certainly within His nature to create, and what He creates in the BPW does indeed reflect His nature.  So the act of creation is certainly not whimsical, and I do not know of any Christians who view it as whimsical...

But one thing that I think you emphasize, which many Christians loose sight of, is the fact that God created the world - and image bearers in particular - so that we might be at one with him and one another.  This is a major theme in the letters of Paul, particularly Ephesians, as well as in the Gospel of John.  We are many, but we are meant to be as one.  This is the eschatology of history.

I do disagree with you when you say that most ecclesiastical authorities have never had an original thought, or that they are anti-philosophical.  On the contrary, I find most of the theologians that I read to be quite conscious and profound thinkers.  Here's a quote that I think you will find intriguing in light of some things I have heard you say before.  Keep in mind the Rushdoony quote was written in '69, before the "hippies saved physics"...

"History is not simply a matter of the past causing the future; it is also true that the future causes the past, as R.J. Rushdoony explains: 'The movement of time, according to the Bible, is from eternity, since it is created by God and moves out of and in terms of His eternal decree.... Because time is predestined, and because its beginning and end are already established, time does not develop in evolutionary fashion from past to present to future.  Instead, it unfolds from future to present to past."
Ref. Pg 171 at the following link.  It's a commentary on the Book of Revelation by David Chilton.  You should peruse through it some time...  It might just make you postmil Smile
https://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs/pdf/days_of_vengeance.pdf

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by Nunia.binus on Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:45 pm

Dan, re: TSA2, might that be Jeremy Corbell’s Duo of movies coming out, “The Hunt for the Skinwalker”, and “Lazar”?
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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by dan on Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:10 am

dd,

Allow me to speculate that many of our differences are semantical.  

However, the BPW is the BPW.  Where does God’s choice come in?  He is not free to create the second best world.  

And you are still thinking of Creation as being embedded in time.  Wrong.  

Time was just another facet of Creation.  If we are one with God in the End, we are one with God for all time.  We are indistinguishable from God, ‘sub specie aeternitas’.

This is simply a matter of timeless logic.  

Time is our primary illusion.  

Our separation from God is the second illusion.  

Our third illusion is the notion of a big, old world.  

When I tried to explain this at Grace, they told me that God would not deceive us.  

Ok, then, we deceive ourselves for a greater glory.  

So let me amend....... separation from God is our greatest illusion...... all the other illusions are simply to reinforce this primary illusion.  


10:40........


99,

In my estimation, free will comes in with our thoughts and imaginations, but not in our actions, which are, indeed, predetermined.  
.........


If you want to think of Creation temporally, God poured himself into Creation to such an extent that he had a mental breakdown....... we are the fragments of his breakdown...... his multiple personality disorder, and now we are in the process of pulling ourselves together again.  


Not having free will, what do we do with punishment.....?

Punishment becomes salvation by another name...... rehabilitation.  There may still be irredeemable sociopaths.  They would be the only ones who might be incarcerated.  


Speculation on TSA 2&3........

I understand that Puthoff, DeLonge & Co are preparing a major expansion of the original Nimitz story, for sometime this summer. I’m sure that many other endeavors are in the works.

I’m no longer getting updates on the gadget by the Lake. There may need to be a reset, after a meltdown.




(cont........)


Last edited by dan on Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:23 am; edited 5 times in total
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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by 99 on Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:22 am

I'm still confused about where free-will comes in when everything in this world is predestined.

----------------
Dan, thanks for your feedback on that. Smile

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by hobbit on Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:34 am

Persons are not the unique entities within the substance of love.
It is arrogance personified to assume such.


Love is consciousness, consciousness is love.


All living entities are within their own unique field of consciousness.
All living entities are in our case within this planets field of consciousness.


When any living entity so called dies, it looses it's unique field and becomes instead at rest with the planets so.


hobbit

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by murnut on Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:19 pm

99 wrote:I'm still confused about where free-will comes in when everything in this world is predestined.

----------------
Dan, thanks for your feedback on that. [smiley]https://illiweb.com/fa/i/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/smiley]

It's possible to change the path "one" is on..but not possible to change the path "we" are on.

We all end up where we are supposed to whether we want that or not.

I believe we all go to the same place

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by dan on Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:58 pm

murnut,

I have speculated, to myself at least, that trajectories could be exchanged between individuals or groups, even, without upsetting the larger flow.

This is not unlike exchange interactions between electrons.

There need not be proximity as there is with particles.

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by murnut on Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:41 pm

What would be the purpose in that?
Has it happened before?

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by desertdweller on Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:07 pm

Dan,

I agree that much of our differences may be semantic in nature.  We may both be referring to the same ideas, but using a different lexicon in describing those ideas.  However, I do think that semantics are important, as our use of words in describing concepts, either clarify our ideas, or obscure them.

When it comes to the BPW and the free will of God, this is related to the question that physicists often ask in light of the anthropic principle.  That is, could God have created the universe with a different set of laws, and still accommodate life?

I contend that these questions are next to impossible to answer, simply because we are not God.  To use a point you made earlier, could God have created a world where I didn’t see my neighbor kick his dog, and achieve the same purposes in my life that occurred in that moment?  I would say it’s hard to say no to that question.

Nevertheless...

(Cont...)

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by murnut on Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:27 pm

Ha...there is a very important reason you saw the dog kicked...
We just don't know what it is yet.

The reason I found Dan happened in 72 when I saw something I can't explain.

Somewhat we are along for the ride...

Very few can change what they really are....

Otherwise you wouldn't be you

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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by dan on Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:12 am

murnut,

There is considerable determinism built into the BPWH.  I’m merely suggesting ways to minimize that determinism from the perspective of the individual by allowing for the exchange of trajectories.


One thing that is bothering me now is how we can ever ‘play it again, Sam’, and still maintain the all important notion of a consensual presence.  

There are other perspectives on lives. One is the life review aspect of NDEs, as often reported.

(cont.......)
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Re: Persons within the substance of love.

Post by 99 on Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:21 am

There are other perspectives on lives. One is the life review aspect of NDEs, as often reported.
Dan wrote:

Which, to the inquiring mind, should inspire us to wonder why are we subjected to a life review as we are transiting from this realm to the next?

To me, it drills in the point expressed in Romans 2:6-7

For [God] will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life...

But the next question is, how can we be judged by our actions and thoughts when everything is predetermined anyways? So how can we be held responsible for actions and thoughts that, in reality, our not our own, but God's?

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